T3 File format and file editing

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 21:45

I have just purchased a new T3, it arrived on Friday. The reason I bought the T3 is that I own a DP-P2(2TB) and have edited and saved over 4TB of TV shows and movies on 3 external HDD, that were originally received on the DP-P2.

I heard some while ago that that the Beyonwiz company had ceased production. This concerned me as my investigations suggested that should my DP-P2 ever fail I would be unable to play my saved files on any other PVR as they used different file formats.

My DP-P2 had a hiccup the other day and I searched for a repairer, only to discover that Beyonwiz is not only still operating but has a new model with three tuners and the capability of recording up to six programs simultaneously. I immediately ordered one.

Now that it has arrived I have discovered that the interface is nothing like my other Beyonwiz and more importantly there does not seem to be any way of editing files or playing my saved files on it.

Please advise me if I am correct in those assumptions? Can I still play my saved Beyonwiz files on it? Am I still able to edit any new saved files to cut out the ads, like I have previously done?

If I have missed something and the new PVR will do these things, please point me to the handbook with the instructions on how to do it, as the new PVR only came with setup instructions.

Thanking you in advance for your time to make a reply.

TomS

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 22:01

A lot of your assumptions are incorrect.

Although the previous Beyonwiz agent stopped trading, another replaced it.

It's perfectly possible to copy recordings off a DP series PVR and put them on a T3 to play. Here's an outline of how to do it.

You can edit recordings on the T3. In the Movie Player (MEDIA from live TV), go to MENU>Cut-list Editor... However, unlike the DP series, editing a recording on the T3 will not reduce the disk storage used by the recording (it just makes a list of "play from here to here entries" for the editing).

There is an online manual for the T3 on the Beyonwiz download page in the T3 section. There are video guides from Beyonwiz in the T3 FAQs, Tips & How to Guides section of the forum. And there is simple help available on the T3 itself. Pressing HELP in many screens will give you a brief guide to what the remote buttons do in that context. If you press a remote button in the HELP page, it will take you to the help entry for the button. If you move up and down in the HELP screen it will indicate which buttons do the listed actions. If you press HELP in the HELP screen it will give you information about how to use the HELP screen.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 22:03

You can play all of your old files, assuming you have saved them in a compatible format. The t3 supports almost all common formats.

Unfortunately you can't edit files on the t3 in the same fashion as the dp series. You can insert skips to jump over ads, but it doesn't actually alter the file or file size in doing so.

Your best bet is to edit the files on a PC. It is super easy to copy files off the t3, so it is not a hassle to copy and edit that way. The bonus being that editing software in the PC will be far more powerful and accurate than the dp file editor.

The different interface is a bit of a shock at first, but I have come to like it. There are many things it does that make the t3 a more usable machine than the dp.

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 22:20

Thank you both so much for that information, I'll get the handbook and try those suggestions.

jonpanoff · Post by **jonpanoff** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 02:32

So the idea is to get the raw files off the T3 and into the PC for editing? That might be better as you could use a timeline editor. One thing I noticed is that the DP series had trouble playing TS format beyonwiz files over the network (longer loading and locked up when skipping through the file) so I transferred all my files in the twiz format. Is the T3 able to play twiz files over a network? I hope so as I have around 10TB of them. What editor is everyone using to top and tail and remove ads on the PC? Is there any editor that can handle twiz files natively??

prl · Post by **prl** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:28

jonpanoff wrote:... Is the T3 able to play twiz files over a network? I hope so as I have around 10TB of them.

No, not directly. It can play them if you use WizFX or YARDWiz to convert them to single-file .ts format. You could also write scripts around getWizPnP to do batch conversions.

There's some detailed discussion about this here. It's intertwined with other discussion, but it eventually gets to some outline U*ix scripts for doing recursive conversions of whole subtrees of recordings. Converting the U*ix scripts to Windows is left as an exercise for the reader (I really hate .BAT files).

jonpanoff wrote:What editor is everyone using to top and tail and remove ads on the PC?

Don't know about "everyone", but I use MPEG Streamclip on my Mac on the rare occasions that I want to edit .ts files. We're pretty much a watch-and-delete household. MPEG Streamclip is also available on Windows.

jonpanoff wrote: Is there any editor that can handle twiz files natively??

Apart from the editor built in to the DP series firmware, not that I know of. Tvwiz is a Beyonwiz proprietary format. There are very few tools to handle .tvwiz files. What is available is on the DP series software page on OpenWiz Wiki, but it seems to be unreachable at the moment. I've just sent an email to the sysadmin for the site that hosts OpenWiz.

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:46

prl wrote:You can edit recordings on the T3. In the Movie Player (MEDIA from live TV), go to MENU>Cut-list Editor... However, unlike the DP series, editing a recording on the T3 will not reduce the disk storage used by the recording (it just makes a list of "play from here to here entries" for the editing).

I'm thinking of buying a T3 and just wanted to clarify something about file editing first. Every recording I make is pre and post padded (sometimes by a lot) and I always trim out the actual show and then save it to the appropriate folder until I have time to watch it. This isn't about disk space - the reason is so the recordings appear in the list with the running time I will end up watching instead of the total running time of the original padded recording. Also, when I am watching it, I can bring up the status bar and see a visual cue of exactly where I am and how far there is to go.

Is anyone able to advise whether T3 edited recordings show the edited running time in the listing and the playback status display?

Also, if you create an edit from a recording, does the T3 create a new listing for the edit or just apply the start/stop info to the original listing?

Thanks
Steve

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:55

Not sure about your questions specifically, but the T3 does one nice thing.

When it records a program with padding, it will automatically insert a bookmark exactly when the show starts and exactly when the show ends. That way, you can bring up the timeline while watching the program and clearly see how far through the actual show you are.

As for excessive padding, the T3 has a clever Autotimer system that comes in handy particularly if you use the FTA EPG (they still work with the Ice Guide, but the Ice EPG is not as finely "grained" as the FTA one).

Overly simplified explanation follows:
An Autotimer will accept a broad range of times when you set it up (say 6pm to 9pm), and then you specify by name, what show you want to record within that time. The T3 will then search the EPG within the specified parameters for a matching show and will then set up a recording for it. The Autotimer will adjust the start and stop times for the timer on a schedule, so as the broadcaster updates their EPG. That way, you can set your padding way down to a few minutes either side of the program and be reasonably assured that you will get the whole thing.

Now Autotimers *can* have their own problems when you have short programs and other confusing factors, but I have personally not had issues with them when I have used them. (I now use Ice and let that manage my recordings).

So in summary, Autotimers and short padding times, along with the T3's feature to bookmark start and stop times comes pretty close to what you need I think.

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 13:06

Thanks MrQuade, that sounds like it's coming close to the ideal of dispensing with padding completely and just selecting a program from the EPG then letting the box monitor the programming on the channel to start and stop for the desired program. Can you set an Autotimer from the guide display?

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 16:19

Yep!

Here is a screenshot of the EPG that shows that the blue button (at the bottom) will add an Autotimer for the highlighted show.

Once you do that, it will pop up a new screen to prompt you to refine the search parameters, but often, the defaults will work fine.

You might find in practice that Autotimers are a bit of overkill for a one-off recording though, they are will suited to finding regular occurrences of a show.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 16:35

I just had a chance to do some mucking around in the cut editor (I never use it normally).

The file runtime that is shown in the media browser does not update with the new cut length.
When you play back the file, it just starts and stops at the cut points (or skips over the cut segments), but does show the whole file duration, albeit with the cut marks showing.

It might be something that can be added to the firmware though? A feature request to update the metadata files and.or media browserto show the post-cut video duration rather than the total file duration.

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 22:03

Thanks very much for looking into it, MrQuade. I really appreciate it.

Good idea about the feature request - I will do that. I think it follows logically that if you make an edit that you should see your changes reflected in the running time shown in the browser. I often find myself looking at movies I've recorded and picking the one I want to watch based on how long it goes for verses how long I've got. Your point is well taken about Autotimers though - for things where it's more of an issue (e.g. movies) maybe I'll use an Autotimer with minimal padding.

I've decided to get one based on yours and others feedback to the questions I've asked. Now to decide whether to buy bare bones or not. I've read Peter's How To for installing a disk but I'm not a hardware guy so I'm a bit apprehensive.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 22:24

Good stuff

It's a great PVR, though still a little rough around the edges, but the things it does do well it does VERY well

I love streaming live TV to my tablets/PCs, and being able to simply copy recordings off it using the native Windows networking tools. It is actually a pretty decent media player as well, though mapping shares and bookmarking etc, can take a little headscratching up if you are not great with networks.

As for which to buy, you do pay a bit of a premium for having the harddisk fitted for you. I personally chose to buy the pre-fitted 2TB model, despite being very handy with PCs and hardware building.

My decision was based on an assumption that I would be met with less fuss in case the hardware failed for some reason. It turns out that Beyonwiz are pretty good with warranty support even if you have fitted your own hardware, so maybe I put too much weight on that advantage

That being said, if you have fitted an internal harddisk into a PC yourself, then you are probably in good shape to try fitting a disk to the T3. If you haven't then you might want to have a good read of the instructions here:
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7856
and if anything there sounds a bit hairy to you, then you can make up your own mind

.
The standard harddisk in the T3 is (in my case anyway), a Western Digital Green model. Pretty much anything with a SATA interface will do, but the quieter and lower power, the better (lower heat buildup and less noise in your TV cabinet)

.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 22:33

It's worth reiterating that the t3 doesn't edit the files, it only flags non watching sections that it skips over on playback. So the file never changes in duration.

However, going back to MrQuade other point, when a file is recorded the start and end of the show as set by the broadcaster are added to the file after it is recorded. While these don't affect duration, there is a small progress bar icon for each file that does reflect this. While it is useful, it doesn't address your main question about showing revised duration and is also only really useful for partially played files, where it knows you have watched a file once you have passed the end mark and ignores the padding.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:26

mrcell wrote:... Your point is well taken about Autotimers though - for things where it's more of an issue (e.g. movies) maybe I'll use an Autotimer with minimal padding. ...

For the same total data volume, padding wastes more space if the recordings are short than if they are long.

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:40

prl wrote:For the same total data volume, padding wastes more space if the recordings are short than if they are long.

True of course, but I meant the comment more in reference to my frustration about the running time in the browser including the padding time. For 30 min or 60 min shows, not so much of a problem because I know how long the shows are regardless of how much padding is there.

Movies, however, can be a range of lengths and I would like to be able to get an idea from the browser listings. Hence my plan to use very short padded Autotimers for movies.

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:54

I really think the company has made a poor call in going with this overlay concept of editing. It was a bad idea when Topfield tried it a few years ago and it's still a bad idea now. I get that disk space rationalisation is much less of an issue in this era of multi-TB drives but that was only ever a minor consideration for me.

The DP-P2 had a superior recording edit implementation to even the Toppy 4K and 5K models (which were very good) and they should have retained it. If they are now noting from the programming data being recorded where the target show starts and stops they could even have enhanced it by offering an auto-edit option for the padded recording (and one day, if the transmitted metadata becomes reliable enough, targeted recording from the EPG by monitoring for the selected program).

I've never used Ice, maybe it's time to look into what that could do for me.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:14

It wasn't so much of a "decision" as an "only option".

The DP series could easily edit, because the recording files are stored in little chunks that can simply be deleted when you want to chop bits out. Since the T3's recordings are large files, it would need to have a full blown file editor for cutting and splicing files, which would be a bit of a tall order for the puny little CPU in the T3.

Ice is a good service for automatically managing series recording with very little user intervention, but probably wont help you for this particular issue. The Ice guide is often not as up-to-date or to-the-minute accurate as the FTA guide, so you may find that your padding settings will need to be more conservative rather than less.

The other thing you can do is edit/clip the files from your PC using decent editing software. You should even be abledo that over the network in-situ on the T3! (although I have not tried that myself)

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:20

I must admit I'm struggling with what you are looking for. The files have a fixed padding so the duration is always 22 minutes (or whatever you set) less than the recording. For a movie, the ad breaks will create even more variance (especially if there is a news break).

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:25

mrcell wrote:I really think the company has made a poor call in going with this overlay concept of editing. It was a bad idea when Topfield tried it a few years ago and it's still a bad idea now. I get that disk space rationalisation is much less of an issue in this era of multi-TB drives but that was only ever a minor consideration for me.

I agree with all of that, though the "edit list" method of editing is in fact quite powerful and can do much more than the UI allows, like cutting a piece of a recording out and pasting it somewhere else in the recording.

mrcell wrote:The DP-P2 had a superior recording edit implementation to even the Toppy 4K and 5K models (which were very good) and they should have retained it.

They might have if they had built the Beyonwiz firmware from scratch. However, it is still mostly an adaptation of the OE-Alliance's enigma2 firmware.

mrcell wrote:If they are now noting from the programming data being recorded where the target show starts and stops they could even have enhanced it by offering an auto-edit option for the padded recording (and one day, if the transmitted metadata becomes reliable enough, targeted recording from the EPG by monitoring for the selected program).

The main reason for using edit lists on single-file recordings (as in the Topfield 7xxx models and the T3) is that the Unix file system offers only one file edit operation that reduces the file size (two, strictly speaking, but the second one always makes the file size 0 bytes). That operation is trunc(), and can be used to reduce the size of a file by cutting off its end. Any other true editing operations need to copy the data to new file. That could be done as an operation on an original recording and its edit list, but there is no such function available (I don't think there's even a plugin for it). The function would akso have to rebuild the metadata files, including the indexes into the recording data, so it's not just a matter of rebuilding the recording data.

I've never used Ice, maybe it's time to look into what that could do for me.

For various reasons (especially Ice's uncertainty about the actual program run time, and their decision to have a 5-minute granularity to their schedule), padding is essential with IceTV. I use 5 min pre and 25min post (and have done so ever since IceTV started trying to estimate actual start times and duration). For movies, that means that I can easily work out their actual run length (including ads) by subtracting half an hour.

Going back to the original question, it looks as though the cut marks are by file position, not time, so they'd need to be converted into times to get accurate run times.

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 13:06

simoncasey wrote:I must admit I'm struggling with what you are looking for. The files have a fixed padding so the duration is always 22 minutes (or whatever you set) less than the recording. For a movie, the ad breaks will create even more variance (especially if there is a news break).

Essentially, exactly what the DP-P2 already has. I understand that's not practical, times change and I need to change with them. I feel better after my tantrum though

My plan now is to not have auto pads, do my own for each timer and use Autotimers with small pads for movies so the run time shown will be close. I can handle the ad breaks throwing it off a little as those are proportional to the run time. It's the pads that throw it right out because for an 8:30pm movie of the week you can get away with minimal padding but for an early morning movie or something starting after a sporting event I might post-pad it by an hour or more.

MrQuade wrote:Since the T3's recordings are large files, it would need to have a full blown file editor for cutting and splicing files, which would be a bit of a tall order for the puny little CPU in the T3.

All the Toppys except for 7xxx (including the old ones) recorded to single large files and they had no problems editing.

MrQuade wrote:The other thing you can do is edit/clip the files from your PC using decent editing software. You should even be abledo that over the network in-situ on the T3! (although I have not tried that myself)

You know, this might be the go - awesome suggestion. I have a good video editor on the PC end so maybe doing a full edit including ads for movies in situ on the T3 could work. I use a wireless-N bridge which might struggle so maybe I would need to look at cabling.

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 13:07

Thanks Peter, for your detailed explanation of some of the underlying issues. It is much appreciated. It looks like I had the wrong idea about Ice - I thought it monitored what was being broadcast and let you hone in on what you wanted even as the schedule changed as things ran over etc. I'm happy looking after things myself regarding repeats and season recordings so I'll probably keep doing that.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 13:17

mrcell wrote: All the Toppys except for 7xxx (including the old ones) recorded to single large files and they had no problems editing.

Hmm odd. I thought the Topfields were known for NOT editing the actual files and just inserting skips too. Having not been a Toppy owner I was making assumptions on possibly bad info then

.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 13:34

MrQuade wrote:
mrcell wrote: All the Toppys except for 7xxx (including the old ones) recorded to single large files and they had no problems editing.
Hmm odd. I thought the Topfields were known for NOT editing the actual files and just inserting skips too. Having not been a Toppy owner I was making assumptions on possibly bad info then .

IIRC the Topfield 5xxx (SD) series had special filesystem hacks that allowed it to support efficient file editing. The Topfield 7xxx (HD) series (way back, I had a TF7000) use standard filesystem code, record to single files and have an edit-list approach to editing, much like the T3.

The U*ix file systems that both the T7xxxs and the T3 use don't support the file editing needed to support the recording editing UI in a way that reduces file size (apart from trunc() as discussed above). They could be modified to support it, but then you'd need to support the file system modifications rather than just using the standard Linux distributions. I can describe how it might be made to work if anyone's interested. I don't intend implementing it, though.

I think that there are tools for the Topfield 7xxx series (possibly TAPS) that will run the edit list against the recording data and produce a reduced-size edited recording corresponding to the edit list.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 13:50

mrcell wrote:Thanks Peter, for your detailed explanation of some of the underlying issues. It is much appreciated. It looks like I had the wrong idea about Ice - I thought it monitored what was being broadcast and let you hone in on what you wanted even as the schedule changed as things ran over etc. I'm happy looking after things myself regarding repeats and season recordings so I'll probably keep doing that.

IceTV does do as you describe, more or less. But they are rather limited in what they can do.

Their main tool is to use broadcaster's schedule history to predict what will be in upcoming broadcasts. If the broadcaster generally runs a show 5 minutes later than the scheduled start, they will adapt to that. They also make small updates from the broadcaster's published schedules, but they are a bit limited in how much they can use.

In 2009, Nine (as owner of the TV schedule aggregator HWW) started a copyright action against IceTV on the basis of their use of published schedule data to update their schedules. IceTV eventually won (IIRC, they won in NSW Supreme Court, lost in the Federal Court and then won in the High Court), but it was a costly exercise, and if they'd failed, not only would there have been likely to be significant costs against them, the quality of their schedule would have been compromised.

I'm sure they're careful to stay within whatever limits the High Court decision might have set out.

In any case, the 5-minute resolution of the IceTV schedule means that you can't get to-the-second recording from IceTV.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 14:09

prl wrote:I thought the Topfields were known for NOT editing the actual files and just inserting skips too. Having not been a Toppy owner I was making assumptions on possibly bad info then .

It was only the 7000 series Toppies that operated in this way - the perception has lingered, possibly because there was so much disappointment with what many saw as a retrograde step.
All the current TMS series Topfields do 'proper' editing, but not without some compromise. The navigation and information files associated with each recording need to be rebuilt - there is, of course, a TAP available to help with this.
Hope this clears up a misconception among non-Topfield owners.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 14:51

MtQuade wrote that, not me

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 15:20

I'm going to order a T3. I'll have to deal with the stuff I don't particularly like to get the new features that I do like the sound of. I have decided to get a bare bones unit and use a 3TB WD Purple that I've found online. I'm not looking forward to installing the disk (I'm a software guy, not a hardware guy) but I think it's worth it to get the disk I want in it rather than taking pot luck. Thanks for your install tutorial in the How To's, Peter.

Thanks also to everyone that helped out with my queries.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 21:17

After all the talk about the movie cuts here, and in another thread, I thought I would go hunting for a proper cut editor for Enigma.

What do you know, I found a couple of threads discussing it, including some plugins.
Before installing the unknown plugin (for a different processor model), I thought I would check the standard T3 plugin list.

and lo I saw it!
"Moviecut"

Once you have finished editing the file using the cut editor, you simply highlight the file and press "Menu". There is a new option there to "Apply cuts", and it gives you a few options (edit the file directly, make a copy, etc..). It then fires off a background task and applies the cuts.

I tried it on a simple file which I had topped and tailed. The Cut file appeared almost immediately since it was a simple edit. There was no background task showing in the task list, but a minute or or two later, there was a popup to say "all done".

The final file showed the correct event duration, and even copied over the metadata. Not bad.

I think this is worth including in the list of plugins installed as standard.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 22:13

[quote="MrQuade"
"Moviecut"

Once you have finished editing the file using the cut editor, you simply highlight the file and press "Menu". There is a new option there to "Apply cuts", and it gives you a few options (edit the file directly, make a copy, etc..). It then fires off a background task and applies the cuts.
[/quote]

Interesting. There is a TAP for Topfields called MovieCutter that seems to operate in a very similar way.

prl · Post by **prl** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 15:15

Good find.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 16:00

I was just thinking about this plugin and making things somewhat simpler.

A handy feature to have would be a single step top and tail option accessible via the "Menu" button in the media player.

The new option/feature would clip the padding off the front and back of a recording, as long as the recording appeared to be in a "normal" format ie. it contained two bookmarks that are "close" to the beginning and end of the file. If it the file looked normal, the T3 would then simply snip the padding off.

Obviously there would be a multitude of ways to trip up such a simple check, but as long as it acted conservatively and only worked on files that REALLY looked like a single event surrounded by padding, it would serve as a quick way to trim recordings down to size without having to waste 30 seconds per recording in the cut editor.

prl · Post by **prl** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 16:21

The moviecut source is available online

mrcell · Post by **mrcell** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 20:43

MrQuade wrote:A handy feature to have would be a single step top and tail option accessible via the "Menu" button in the media player.

Yes, that was exactly my thinking in making an earlier comment about how I would like things to work. Got an email today saying my T3 has been shipped and I will make this plugin one of the first cabs off the rank.

Awesome outcome - thanks guys.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 20:49

MrQuade wrote:The new option/feature would clip the padding off the front and back of a recording, as long as the recording appeared to be in a "normal" format ie. it contained two bookmarks that are "close" to the beginning and end of the file. If it the file looked normal, the T3 would then simply snip the padding off.

Obviously there would be a multitude of ways to trip up such a simple check, but as long as it acted conservatively and only worked on files that REALLY looked like a single event surrounded by padding, it would serve as a quick way to trim recordings down to size without having to waste 30 seconds per recording in the cut editor.

I have seen a few too many recordings where some of the markers were missing or for the next show so I would be wary about it being automatic just based on that. And being close to the beginning and end doesn't always give you the right ones.

Maybe if it could access the padding settings and use them to gauge if the markers were in the correct position it might be better.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 21:02

Gully wrote: I have seen a few too many recordings where some of the markers were missing or for the next show so I would be wary about it being automatic just based on that. And being close to the beginning and end doesn't always give you the right ones.

Maybe if it could access the padding settings and use them to gauge if the markers were in the correct position it might be better.

That's why I suggested it was to be ultra conservative. I would have it refuse to process the file unless there were exactly two bookmarks in it, and some sort of calculation of the time between bookmarks being significantly larger than the bits being chopped, for some magical value of "significant".

But yes, the plugin could peek at the default padding settings and have a further guess as to the validity of the cuts as well.

For me personally, since it would be user-initiated, I would have a good idea in my head at which files it would work properly on, and would be happy to let it chop as long as it found two bookmarks. Most of the stuff I record is either 30 or 60 minutes long, with 5 and 10 minute padding. If the files didn't meet a fairly decent approximation of that, then I would be happy for the cut to be refused, forcing me to cut manually with the cut editor. I couldn't see more than 10% of my recordings failing to process properly on that basis.

Recordings that would trick it might be an event that was recorded and followed by a second short 5 minute event. The second event would be caught in the post-padding and result in three bookmarks, so would fail the auto-cut test. Similarly for an event where the start was missed. It would result in a single bookmark so fail the test. And another variation, if the start of the event was missed, but I also caught a 5 minute event in the post-padding,.....I would have 2 bookmarks, but they would both be too close to the end of the recording, so would refuse to cut.

Anyway...I am really just thinking out loud. I wouldnt want this plugin to automatically fire off when the recording finished to "clean up", I'd definitely want it to be something I have to initiate manually.

prl · Post by **prl** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 21:21

Gully wrote:... Maybe if it could access the padding settings and use them to gauge if the markers were in the correct position it might be better.

The current padding settings aren't necessarily the ones that were used for the recording. Even a recording timer doesn't know what its padding settings were!

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 22:18

MrQuade wrote:That's why I suggested it was to be ultra conservative. I would have it refuse to process the file unless there were exactly two bookmarks in it, and some sort of calculation of the time between bookmarks being significantly larger than the bits being chopped, for some magical value of "significant".

Wouldn't work for me as some of the shows I recorded are only 5 minutes or so. And I still have fair amount of post padding to allow for some of the stuff ups on commercial stations.

But I like the general idea.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 22:22

prl wrote:The current padding settings aren't necessarily the ones that were used for the recording. Even a recording timer doesn't know what its padding settings were!

Fair enough. Maybe there is another way of adding some checks and balances?

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 22:34

Yes, I doubt the plugin would be effective for any event shorter than 30 minutes otherwise the event would be far too small as a proportion of the overall recording duration.

If you wanted to make it a flexible plugin, you could potentially expose options for acceptable bookmark locations for a range of recording lengths.

Eg.
>30min pre padding within 20% of total and post padding within 40%.
>60min pre 20% post 30%
Etc..

You could even program it to ask if you REALLY want to cut if the bookmarks are in marginal locations with the default answer of no.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:00

You could get around most concerns by creating a new file rather than editing the file. That way you still have the original.

Note that the marks that are put in by the broadcast channel changes are just normal bookmarks, they aren't a special type of mark. It's possible for a file to have multiple bookmarks that are added by the user rather than the broadcast. I think we have to ignore padding as that no longer exists in a recorded file.

I assume the movie cut plugin requires the use of IN and OUT marks that are applied by the cut list editor. They don't need to be in pairs, every thing between an OUT and IN is deleted as well as anything between BOF and IN and also between OUT and EOF.

I still find the cut list editor difficult to use and would much prefer that the in and out marks could be assigned while watching the file like you can assign a normal bookmark using the 0. I note that GREEN and YELLOW currently don't do anything while watching a recording.

But this looks like a really good find.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:17

simoncasey wrote: I assume the movie cut plugin requires the use of IN and OUT marks that are applied by the cut list editor. They don't need to be in pairs, every thing between an OUT and IN is deleted as well as anything between BOF and IN and also between OUT and EOF.

Yes, the moviecut plugin just takes the IN and OUT marks and discards anything that would normally be skipped over, it is very straightforward.

My musing on a new plugin was just a super simple one step "clip the ends off a recording", and the easiest way to do that was to look for bookmarks that had already been created without having to delve into the horrible cut editor.

As a side note, the existing moviecut plugin does give you the option to keep the original file. My thoughts on the super-simple new plugin would be to delete the original...for the sake of simplicity and cutting down steps, though, you could always get it to keep the original as an option, or when it detected that the cut "didnt look right".

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 13:50

Oh, i see. I thought you were suggesting changing the current one but you mean a new plugin.

However, if we had access to in and out marks without going into the cut editor we could use the existing plug in. Or open the file press -> to the first mark and skip as required then press GREEN for IN. Process -> to jump to the next mark, adjust and then press YELLOW for OUT. Then run the movie cut.

Obviously not as simple as your suggestion but still much easier than using the cut editor and also uses an existing plug in.

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 17:10

simoncasey wrote:... I ... would much prefer that the in and out marks could be assigned while watching the file ...

There was some discussion about just that in the beta forum pre-release. I thought a request had got into the issue tracker, but it hasn't. If people think it's generally a good idea, I'll add an proposal for it.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 18:08

Simple editing integrated into the media player would indeed be a welcome inclusion. The cut editor seems as if it was deliberately designed to be completely obtuse.

I must admit I would have to spend more time with it (my first try was as a result of this thread), but in the 5 minutes I mucked round with it, I couldn't even figure out how to navigate through the file, and ended up just setting cut points on top of pre-existing bookmarks (as that was the outcome I was trying to achieve anyway).

Now to add a further 2c. If this feature ends up being integrated into the media player, could it then, on exit, offer to fire off the moviecut plugin for you, if it has detected that new cuts had been added to the recording?

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 18:21

MrQuade wrote:Simple editing integrated into the media player would indeed be a welcome inclusion. The cut editor seems as if it was deliberately designed to be completely obtuse.

I must admit I would have to spend more time with it (my first try was as a result of this thread), but in the 5 minutes I mucked round with it, I couldn't even figure out how to navigate through the file, and ended up just setting cut points on top of pre-existing bookmarks (as that was the outcome I was trying to achieve anyway).

Now to add a further 2c. If this feature ends up being integrated into the media player, could it then, on exit, offer to fire off the moviecut plugin for you, if it has detected that new cuts had been added to the recording?

The number keypad does skipping (but not based on your configured skips). Otherwise play, pause, ffwd, rew etc all work. But the arrow keys step between the bookmarks rather than doing skips.

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 18:24

simoncasey wrote:... The number keypad does skipping (but not based on your configured skips). Otherwise play, pause, ffwd, rew etc all work. But the arrow keys step between the bookmarks rather than doing skips.

That's odd, because the CutListEditor screen class inherits from InfoBarSeek, which should implement all the skips and FF/REW as you'd expect (it's the class that implements skips in timeshift and in the Movie Player).

I don't see the point of the separate UI, though.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 18:38

On mine, 3 does 10 secs, 6 does 30 secs, and 9 does 90 secs. That's not my settings. The right arrow seems to do 1 sec.

prl · Post by **prl** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 14:04

prl wrote:
simoncasey wrote:... The number keypad does skipping (but not based on your configured skips). Otherwise play, pause, ffwd, rew etc all work. But the arrow keys step between the bookmarks rather than doing skips.
That's odd, because the CutListEditor screen class inherits from InfoBarSeek, which should implement all the skips and FF/REW as you'd expect (it's the class that implements skips in timeshift and in the Movie Player). ...

Ah. I missed the bit in the CutListEditor where it tells InfoBarSeek to use a different action map.

The CutListEditor seek action map is very different from the standard one. These are its key mappings for skips:

Code: Select all

                <key id="KEY_LEFT" mapto="seek:-1" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_RIGHT" mapto="seek:1" flags="m" />

                <key id="KEY_1" mapto="seek:-10" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_3" mapto="seek:10" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_4" mapto="seek:-30" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_6" mapto="seek:30" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_7" mapto="seek:-90" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_9" mapto="seek:90" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_PREVIOUS" mapto="seek:-300" flags="m" />
                <key id="KEY_NEXT" mapto="seek:300" flags="m" />

Note that PREV and NEXT are also mapped to skips, which is not the case in the main Movie Player skip mapping. The seek:N is a fixed skip of N seconds. The numbers are consistent with what Simon reported.

The timeshift and Movie Player key mappings for skips have mapto="seekdef:N" which reference the user-defined skips.

Changing the cut-list editor skips to have the same user-defined mappings as the main player seems like a good idea and should be easy to do. Retaining the 1-sec skips on PREV and NEXT in the cut-list editor also seems like a good idea. I'm not sure if PREV and NEXT map to anything in the Movie Player, so I'm not sure whether the "tiny skip" feature could be retained if the interfaces were merged.

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