DST changeover and ICE

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:04

Might start a bit of the usual churn at this time of the year.
Just noticed that my ICE generated timers for Sunday are 1 hour early.
XFactor start 6:30.
Offspring 7:30.
Ice Web page shows
7:30 and 8:30 respectively.

So I guess it means that first thing sunday, change to DST in the setup.
Delete all timers, and do a resend all from ICE.
Or have I missed a point?

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:24

Hi Grampus,

I am never sure of the vagaries of IceTV timers but if the timers currently look like they are an hour early, won't they be correct when you change the time on the clock at DST transition? That is, the timer won't change time but real time will jump back an hour to make the timer correct (assuming that you change the clock offset on the DST transition.

Regards,
Ian.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:50

IanSav wrote:Hi Grampus,

I am never sure of the vagaries of IceTV timers but if the timers currently look like they are an hour early, won't they be correct when you change the time on the clock at DST transition? That is, the timer won't change time but real time will jump back an hour to make the timer correct (assuming that you change the clock offset on the DST transition.

Regards,
Ian.

Unfortunately, no. If the timers were held in normal MJD (aligned to UTC), than that would be correct. IceTV sends its timers as normal MJD. Unfortunately, on the Beyonwiz the timers are translated on receipt to MJD offset by the time zone. When the time zone is changed, the timer stays at the same local time.

So, for example, IceTV will send a timer for a program at 2000 on Monday (after the DST transition) timestamped as 0900 UTC. This will be translated on the Beyonwiz using the current time zone as being at 1900 (assuming Eastern Australia time zone 10/11 hours).

When the time zone/DST flag is changed, existing timers aren't changed correspondingly, so it will stay set at 1900 in the new time zone, and will trigger one hour too early, at 1900 local (DST) time.

I don't know why PVR manufacturers insist on setting timers using local time rather than using UTC. The EPG distribution systems (FTA and IceTV) use UTC-based time. The Linux operating system inside the box uses UTC-based time. The time information provided by the broadcasters and by NTP uses UTC-based time.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:12

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the explanation.

It is unfortunate that all times are not in UTC. It makes things so much easier.

Regards,
Ian.

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:39

We can always repeat our experiment from several years ago:

madmax - change offset, resend timers.
Gully - change offset, clear cache, resend timers
tony - disable Ice, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, enable Ice.
prl - disable Ice, delete timers, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, enable Ice.

but I'm wondering if luck with timing plays a part when Ice is not disabled.....??

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 13:06

What annoys me is that this still has to be an experimental affair.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 19:03

madmax wrote:tony - disable Ice, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, enable Ice.

Ok, sounds good to me. If I get that silly error again, I can get the debug wizdvp Hanjo gave me working to finally capture the error once and for all. But your testing strategy for me has a small prop, and that is that the existing timers will still stay behind, so will cause some clashing I am sure.
Regards

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 03:49

Ok, on the current beta (whoops, one behind current, has been a busy week), all is nearly OK doing it your suggested way, except that ICE doesn't purge the wrong timers so I end up with old & new timers, and since the cache was cleared , and the timer grabbing is allowed to be every 30mins, EPG grabbing every 60mins, because no EPG existed at the time it grabbed the timers, I have most timers as *ONE HD instead of the program name for example.

blonk · Post by **blonk** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 08:58

Hoping I don't jinx myself, but so far so good. All I did, was set the time offset to +11:00. EPG then changed automatically to the correct time (it was an hour out before changing the offset) I then manually adjusted all existing timers by increasing their start times by one hour to correct them. Everything looks good, just need to wait and make sure the Wiz picks up the new timers from ICE, which aren't due to the end of the week.

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:30

madmax wrote:madmax - change offset, resend timers.

Well, this minimalist approach *almost* worked. There were only two errors after the resend - the first timer in my list was not deleted, so I had to manually delete the 1hr-early-duplicate, and for some reason the second timer in my list was left untouched, so I deleted that one and manually set it correctly. So, on this occasion this method was not 100% accurate. However it has worked properly in the past.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:16

madmax wrote:Gully - change offset, clear cache, resend timers

All went well here.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 13:19

Also don't forget to update your profile here with a change of time zone.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 14:16

I am surprised that you guys didn't get (many/any) timers to delete, I had to delete most of today's (original) timers and do another resend (e.g. motogp 3 timers today, and a later one tonight).

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 14:48

madmax wrote:prl - disable Ice, delete timers, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, enable Ice.

In light of the earlier comment about the timers (on a 30-minute cycle) being fetched before the EPG (on a 60-minute cycle), I modified the procedure slightly:

prl - disable Ice, delete timers, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, wait > 1 hour, enable Ice.

Worked perfectly, first time, on both my Lite and H1.

First time ever that I've had a pain-free DST transition for my Ice timers!

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 15:12

Yeah,the wait 1hour is sensible, as the timers are named at the time of timer creation, which, given the probability of creating timers before the EPG exists is high (when the cache is purged.. and epg retrieve is only hourly vs 30mins for timers) is a wise thing to do.
Hmm, reading again though, the resend occurred immediately, but he wait was for enabling ICE again, but I think the Wiz would retrieve the interactive timers before the EPG in this case?

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 16:22

tonymy01 wrote:...
Hmm, reading again though, the resend occurred immediately, but he wait was for enabling ICE again, but I think the Wiz would retrieve the interactive timers before the EPG in this case?

First step is Disable IceTV; last step (after the wait) is Enable IceTV. It's not going to be fetching anything

I watched the IceTV status. When it is re-enabled, it fetches EPG, then timers.

"Resend everything" doesn't mean "resend everything now", it means "resend everything when the recorder next connects". Calling it "resend" is a bit misleading.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 16:32

Yep, sorry, I meant that I think the wiz retrieves timers before EPG... but I only waited about 15mins, so it depended on which part of the 1hour interval I waited... argh, why does ICE have this silly protocol that doesn't help anyone....ok, the protocol idea is a good idea, but poorly executed when it comes to when you need to rely on it most, such as resetting/re-enabling things etc.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 16:43

tonymy01 wrote:Yep, sorry, I meant that I think the wiz retrieves timers before EPG... but I only waited about 15mins, so it depended on which part of the 1hour interval I waited... argh, why does ICE have this silly protocol that doesn't help anyone....ok, the protocol idea is a good idea, but poorly executed when it comes to when you need to rely on it most, such as resetting/re-enabling things etc.

Funnily enough, I was prompted to insert the one hour wait by your post

What I had originally intended to do was to disable IceTV before I went to bed last night (i.e. do the wait immediately after disabling IceTV), so that I would have got the EPG and timer updates immediately the following morning. But we were watching TV fairly late, and I didn't get around to it. But that would probably be the most convenient way of inserting the wait.

So at the end of DST, I think I'll be doing:
Saturday night: disable IceTV, adjust overnight timers, if necessary
Sunday morning: delete timers, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, enable Ice.

Henk · Post by **Henk** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 17:31

ICE TV has not allowed for the transmission of ABC 24 News, which is not delayed for WA (and other states, eg. SA)
ABC Breakfast is broadcast locally at 04.00 to 07.00h in WA pre the DST change overeast.

For Monday morning 4/10 onwards the transmisson should start at 03.00h, which is not reflected in the ICE EPG.

A curly one,

Henk

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 17:33

Henk wrote:ICE TV has not allowed for the transmission of ABC 24 News, which is not delayed for WA (and other states, eg. SA)
...

It'd probably be a good idea to report that on the IceTV forum. I don't think I've seen anyone else mention it there.

Henk · Post by **Henk** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 17:45

Hi Peter,

prl wrote:
Henk wrote:ICE TV has not allowed for the transmission of ABC 24 News, which is not delayed for WA (and other states, eg. SA)
...
It'd probably be a good idea to report that on the IceTV forum. I don't think I've seen anyone else mention it there.

I did notify ICE TV this morning, but I think the Sunday shift is only "caretaking", the resolution will only be seen on Monday.
Hopefully this will become part of the ICE TV action plan when the DST is turned off again next year.

This was just a prompt for the WA contingent to be alert of this anomaly.

Henk

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 18:40

prl wrote: So at the end of DST, I think I'll be doing:
Sunday night: disable IceTV, adjust overnight timers, if necessary
Monday morning: delete timers, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, enable Ice.

It seems unduly complicated.

Either way, you ought to be doing it on Saturday night and Sunday morning as that straddles the change.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 22:12

Gully wrote:
prl wrote: So at the end of DST, I think I'll be doing:
Sunday night: disable IceTV, adjust overnight timers, if necessary
Monday morning: delete timers, change offset, clear cache, resend timers, enable Ice.
It seems unduly complicated.

Either way, you ought to be doing it on Saturday night and Sunday morning as that straddles the change.

Yes, I've fixed the days.

As for complexity, yes, it's too complex and it should be simpler, but I'd rather have that than messing about for several days to try to get my timers right as I have on previous DST changeovers.

download · Post by **download** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 08:01

I had no timers set for late Saturday so mine reduced to:

Sunday Morning: delete timers, change offset, resend timers.

Worked fine.

However this really should get fixed. The BW knows the users ICE region and its a simple matter to load up the DLS dates for around the country. This would at least enable the devices to have proper AUTO time. It should then be a small step to update the ICE handling code to check if a timer has been sent that crosses a DLS date. That timer could then be adjusted appropriately. Its a bit of a kludge but not a very difficult one.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

j s · Post by **j s** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:26

I was a day late doing it (about an hour ago) but this process was successful...

Change offset to +11:00
Resend timers

After the next update (a 20 minute wait) all my timers had the correct times

DP-S1 running 320 firmware

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:19

It's that time of year again.

Daylight savings instructions for the DP series and FV-L1 are on the IceTV support pages.

IceTV doesn't seem to have sent its usual DST changeover email this year (at least, I didn't get one).

No user action is required for T3s.