Most HD EPG Data missing from ICE in BW

Mork · Post by **Mork** » Mon May 28, 2007 22:02

I have a nice new Beyonwiz PVR and have it networked via a permanently connected Internet Cable Connection. (I am in Melbourne)

The ICE EPG is automatically downloaded, but I notice that most HD channels have little or no EPG data, it this normal for my $11 a month. It makes my investment in a HD PVR and ICE somewhat diminished.

The SD Channels seem to be fully populated, why not the HD channels.

Is this an ICE or a BW Issue?

SimonB · Post by **SimonB** » Mon May 28, 2007 22:51

Mork wrote:Is this an ICE or a BW Issue?

Mork, this is the answer I got from Daniel at ICE today:

The High Definition (HD) guides that we supply are designed to be true representations of which shows are to be shown on these channels in HD.

The gaps that are shown are periods where either a demo loop will be shown or where a Standard Definition shows are being shown that have been up-converted. At the moment there is also no way to confirm what will be played on the HD channels as none of the television networks release a guide for the HD channels.

In each week the television networks are only required to broadcast 40 hours of HD programming, ABC and SBS are exempt from this requirement and frequently do not have anything in HD in a given week and this would be why not much if anything would be on these channels.

We are investigating a way to allow customers to have the full listings shown on both the SD and HD channels, but we have to stress that this would be entirely ?use at your own risk?.

I understand their dilemma, but there must be a way to keep us all happy.

Simon....

jok11n · Post by **jok11n** » Mon May 28, 2007 22:59

SimonB wrote:
Mork wrote:Is this an ICE or a BW Issue?
Mork, this is the answer I got from Daniel at ICE today:

At the moment there is also no way to confirm what will be played on the HD channels as none of the television networks release a guide for the HD channels.........

.........We are investigating a way to allow customers to have the full listings shown on both the SD and HD channels, but we have to stress that this would be entirely ?use at your own risk?.

I understand their dilemma, but there must be a way to keep us all happy.

Simon....

Interesting, ICE always claim to compile all the information themselves anyway, a bit hard when they have to rely on info from the networks regardless

Mork · Post by **Mork** » Mon May 28, 2007 23:27

Thanks SimonB...

To be honest it makes perfect sense to me. It saves me recording in HD what is really only in SD.

Swordfish805 · Post by **Swordfish805** » Tue May 29, 2007 12:44

Agreed - the way ICE works now is as it should be. The last thing I want is the HD channel listing populated with material that is not HD.

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Tue May 29, 2007 14:27

See this is exactly the opposite of my opinion.

My plasma channels are set up as follows: 21, 20, 30, 70, 90, 12. Why would I even bother setting the SD channels when I have an HD plasma?

So therefore, why should I miss out on a full EPG just because I have an HD plasma? This highlights why we need to have a *choice* of all HD or part HD guide data.

fire_dude13 · Post by **fire_dude13** » Tue May 29, 2007 18:13

madmax wrote:See this is exactly the opposite of my opinion.

My plasma channels are set up as follows: 21, 20, 30, 70, 90, 12. Why would I even bother setting the SD channels when I have an HD plasma?

So therefore, why should I miss out on a full EPG just because I have an HD plasma? This highlights why we need to have a *choice* of all HD or part HD guide data.

Madmax,

Totally agree. Surely they can put an asterisk next to each SD program to distinguish between the two.

Cheers

FD13

Mork · Post by **Mork** » Tue May 29, 2007 18:56

madmax wrote:See this is exactly the opposite of my opinion.

My plasma channels are set up as follows: 21, 20, 30, 70, 90, 12. Why would I even bother setting the SD channels when I have an HD plasma?

So therefore, why should I miss out on a full EPG just because I have an HD plasma? This highlights why we need to have a *choice* of all HD or part HD guide data.

You must really love the HD loop on Channel 70 HD during the day, and the ABC Logo on 20 during local news reports

.....

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Tue May 29, 2007 23:53

Mork wrote:You must really love the HD loop on Channel 70 HD during the day, and the ABC Logo on 20 during local news reports .....

Yes I wish channel 70 would lose the loop, it's enough already....

But on the rare occasions on the weekend when I go to 70 and find the loop, I just hit "7" - no big deal. I'd be quite happy to keep doing that with a full HD EPG guide.

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Tue May 29, 2007 23:57

fire_dude13 wrote:Totally agree. Surely they can put an asterisk next to each SD program to distinguish between the two.

You'd think so, wouldn't you. I've already put this idea to them, their answer was "it's not as easy as you might think"......

bohemian · Post by **bohemian** » Wed May 30, 2007 03:33

I dont mind the way the HD chanels are displayed.

As it has already been mentioned, it makes it easy to distinguish between the true HD and the SD material.

Swordfish805 · Post by **Swordfish805** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:52

madmax wrote:See this is exactly the opposite of my opinion.

My plasma channels are set up as follows: 21, 20, 30, 70, 90, 12. Why would I even bother setting the SD channels when I have an HD plasma?

So therefore, why should I miss out on a full EPG just because I have an HD plasma? This highlights why we need to have a *choice* of all HD or part HD guide data.

Mork - this makes no sense. Are you using the plasma tuner or the tuner in your beyonwiz?

I think what you are actually asking for is for all the programs broadcast in HD to be displayed on the HD channels in the EPG and then have the gaps in HD broadcast show up in the EPG with the data from the SD channels (which is mainly, but not always, what is broadcast on the HD channels between HD programs).

The problem with this is twofold:-
- not all SD broadcasts are shown on the HD channels (sometimes the HD channels have a HD demo loop running as another poster has mentioned)
- you would find it difficult to determine, from looking at the EPG, which content on the HD channels is actually in HD. Ice could put an asterisk or something in the EPG that might help make the distinction - but it is one more thing for the user to learn before they can properly use their EPG and PVR.

The way ICE operates now sends the necessary info to the EPG in the most efficient user friendly fashion - if it ain't showing in the HD section of the EPG it ain't in HD!

What I, and I am sure most PVR users, do when setting a recording is to check whether the program is listed on the HD channel and, if so, record it from there. If not, I select to record from the SD channel. Simple, effective, easy to explain, works, please don't ask ICE to fix what ain't broke!

Bandit · Post by **Bandit** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 14:01

Swordfish805 wrote:
madmax wrote:See this is exactly the opposite of my opinion.

My plasma channels are set up as follows: 21, 20, 30, 70, 90, 12. Why would I even bother setting the SD channels when I have an HD plasma?

So therefore, why should I miss out on a full EPG just because I have an HD plasma? This highlights why we need to have a *choice* of all HD or part HD guide data.
Mork - this makes no sense. Are you using the plasma tuner or the tuner in your beyonwiz?

I think what you are actually asking for is for all the programs broadcast in HD to be displayed on the HD channels in the EPG and then have the gaps in HD broadcast show up in the EPG with the data from the SD channels (which is mainly, but not always, what is broadcast on the HD channels between HD programs).

The problem with this is twofold:-
- not all SD broadcasts are shown on the HD channels (sometimes the HD channels have a HD demo loop running as another poster has mentioned)
- you would find it difficult to determine, from looking at the EPG, which content on the HD channels is actually in HD. Ice could put an asterisk or something in the EPG that might help make the distinction - but it is one more thing for the user to learn before they can properly use their EPG and PVR.

The way ICE operates now sends the necessary info to the EPG in the most efficient user friendly fashion - if it ain't showing in the HD section of the EPG it ain't in HD!

What I, and I am sure most PVR users, do when setting a recording is to check whether the program is listed on the HD channel and, if so, record it from there. If not, I select to record from the SD channel. Simple, effective, easy to explain, works, please don't ask ICE to fix what ain't broke!

Ahhh, that answers my question. I called ICE last night to inquire as to why the EPG had great gaps in the programming content and I was told that the "fiddling" I'd done with the Wiz caused the problem. He told me to flush the EPG cache and then everything would return to normal. Needless to say, it didn't. But I now understand that the EPG is only displaying HD programs. So if I want to see the SD programs in the EPG do I set up another list of Favourites containing just the SD channels?

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 14:01

Sure, but this means having 11 channels in my EPG to browse, a real pain when the BW only displays 4 at a time. This might leave me unintentionally viewing an SD channel due to confusion when browsing the EPG, and I don't want to watch the SD channels on my HD plasma. I still say having only 6 channels to browse would be much nicer. And the appearance of the HD loop is very predictable, so not really an issue.

Anyway, each to their own......

danielicetv · Post by **danielicetv** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 14:25

Ok, I should probably jump in here.

The default option will always be to have the guide delivered as it is now, so that only the shows listed as being in HD will be on the HD channels.

We are going to add an option to the "My Account" section of the IceTV website that allows people to choose (with appropriate warnings that this is use at your own risk) to copy all the SD channel data across to the HD channels.

At this stage we don't have a timeframe for this as we need to ensure that it doesn't affect the PVR's that are out there currently, but also that it will works with all supported PVR's.

cindy_bryce · Post by **cindy_bryce** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 15:05

looks live ICETV are on the ball, great user service and support - thanks daniel (i have not problem with icetv) although i have only started using it and now i find it bloody great.

esp when i can rely on any problems being address or at least acknowledged to the customers.

Brilliant keep up the good work and contact with us

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 16:58

danielicetv wrote:Ok, I should probably jump in here.
We are going to add an option to the "My Account" section of the IceTV website that allows people to choose (with appropriate warnings that this is use at your own risk) to copy all the SD channel data across to the HD channels.

Excellent, I'm looking forward to it!! I presume we'll all be notified by email when this feature is available....??

fire_dude13 · Post by **fire_dude13** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 17:44

What I, and I am sure most PVR users, do when setting a recording is to check whether the program is listed on the HD channel and, if so, record it from there. If not, I select to record from the SD channel. Simple, effective, easy to explain, works, please don't ask ICE to fix what ain't broke!

I hear what you're saying but.....I believe most people just want a simple way to record a program from an epg (like foxtel iq or htpc) and just press record on the program on the screen without scrolling through the entire SD and HD list. The channel 7 HD loop would be well known by users on these forums and I don't think is reason to leave it the way it is.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here but, when SD programs are broadcast between the HD programs, they are at least upconverted to HD and therefore better quality than the SD stream. If you have a HD TV, why not be able to choose the better PQ from the epg and have the program name automatically included in your recorded programs list.

I might be in the minority here, but from what I've read on the DTV, Topfield, Beyonwiz and ICE forums, I don't think so.

Just my 2c.

Cheers

FD13

madmax · Post by **madmax** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:03

Yay, this feature is now available with IceTV Guide!!

See here: http://www.icetv.com.au/iceforum/index.php?topic=714.0

I will definitely be using this feature when I get my Wiz. Just waiting for this new firmware to appear.......

jpp · Post by **jpp** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:32

fire_dude13 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong here but, when SD programs are broadcast between the HD programs, they are at least upconverted to HD and therefore better quality than the SD stream. If you have a HD TV, why not be able to choose the better PQ from the epg and have the program name automatically included in your recorded programs list.

You're not strictly correct here FD - the intrinsic quality of an upconverted SD program is the same as its original SD brother- what you see though all depends on whether your display's scaler/de-interlacer is as good as that of the broadcaster's. The newer your display, the better its in-built video processing is likely to be and the more likely the SD program will look as good on SD (or 576i) as on the upscaled HD 1080i resolution. External Video Processors still have the edge on the built-in ones, and are still typically better than those used by most broadcasters from what I see on my display with my VP, but that edge is getting thinner and thinner.

Phil.

danielicetv · Post by **danielicetv** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:13

madmax wrote:Yay, this feature is now available with IceTV Guide!!

See here: http://www.icetv.com.au/iceforum/index.php?topic=714.0

I will definitely be using this feature when I get my Wiz. Just waiting for this new firmware to appear.......

You beat me to it madmax, but yes its up and running.

DaveR · Post by **DaveR** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:24

danielicetv wrote:You beat me to it madmax, but yes its up and running.

And a heads-up for the unwary: The IceTV guide defaults to copying SD programs to the HD channels. If you preferred it the old way you'll need to visit the IceTv website and edit your account settings.

danielicetv · Post by **danielicetv** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:28

Dave? wrote:
danielicetv wrote:You beat me to it madmax, but yes its up and running.
And a heads-up for the unwary: The IceTV guide defaults to copying SD programs to the HD channels. If you preferred it the old way you'll need to visit the IceTv website and edit your account settings.

Actually incorrect, the default will remain as it always has, which is to only show the HD shows on the HD channels. The copying of all SD shows to the HD channels is purely a 'use at your own risk' ability and has to be enabled if you want to use it.

DaveR · Post by **DaveR** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:39

danielicetv wrote:Actually incorrect, the default will remain as it always has, which is to only show the HD shows on the HD channels. The copying of all SD shows to the HD channels is purely a 'use at your own risk' ability and has to be enabled if you want to use it.

Then there might be a bug at your end? I haven't visited the icetv website or changed this new setting, and yet this morning my bw's epg is showing a full guide for the HD channels.

danielicetv · Post by **danielicetv** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 13:19

Dave? wrote: Then there might be a bug at your end? I haven't visited the icetv website or changed this new setting, and yet this morning my bw's epg is showing a full guide for the HD channels.

Yeah it looks like there was an issue with the way it was handled for the Beyonwiz and EyeTV clients as well. It's being looked into now, will advise when resolved.

DaveR · Post by **DaveR** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 13:32

Thanks Daniel.

danielicetv · Post by **danielicetv** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 14:31

Done and done. The default option is honored when downloading on the Beyonwiz and EyeTV. Also confirmed as working is when logging into the IceTV Remote website (which will be more worthwhile once Remote support is added to the Beyonwiz).

rjgard · Post by **rjgard** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 09:49

This setup has been working well but HD programming is starting to change especially on 7HD (I've recorded the wrong shows on 7HD a few times now because programming does not match 7 digital)

7HD program guide is now available on http://au.tv.yahoo.com/tv-guide. Are there any plans for IceTV to pick this up in their HD guides? It would sure be nice to see the guide like the Yahoo guide!!

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 09:58

Read the ICE forums. They can't just copy the guides as produced by 7 and 10, this would fuel the "theft of IP" arguments that Nine was using in the court case.
They have to see a pattern of how the programming is on 7 and 10 to develop their own guide, to steer away from these silly arguments.
Regards

DaveR · Post by **DaveR** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:47

But weren't (aren't) they allowed to copy a small percentage of each week's data? If so, they only need to guesstimate the majority of the programs on the HD channels (i..e all the programs that are identical to what is on the SD channel) and then 'copy' the measly 20 hours a week of different HD programming.

Of course watching for a few weeks to gather any scheduling patterns would greatly reduce the amount of data that needs to be copied. Which is probably what icetv are currently doing (I mean waiting and gathering history, not copying).

Vortical · Post by **Vortical** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:29

Looks like we'll all be waiting until Mid Janaury for IceTV to get this up and running.

Nem · Post by **Nem** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 21:26

tonymy01 wrote:Read the ICE forums. They can't just copy the guides as produced by 7 and 10, this would fuel the "theft of IP" arguments that Nine was using in the court case.
They have to see a pattern of how the programming is on 7 and 10 to develop their own guide, to steer away from these silly arguments.
Regards

I sent an email to the ACMA requesting they consider that the information found in tv guides not be considered copyright material for a number of reasons. I didnt expect to hear back but I guess that something is on the agenda because after browsing their site further I found that they are requesting submissions of comment in regard to the issue.

Jeff Parker · Post by **Jeff Parker** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 17:51

This arvo some data came to my BW S1 for 7 and 10 HD, but no SBS HD data strangely. As it happens, my family and I have been basically weened off paper guides now, and as a result because there's no program data we're tending to not watch these channels as much, i.e. 7 and 10.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 18:40

Jeff Parker wrote:This arvo some data came to my BW S1 for 7 and 10 HD, but no SBS HD data strangely. As it happens, my family and I have been basically weened off paper guides now, and as a result because there's no program data we're tending to not watch these channels as much, i.e. 7 and 10.

IceTV only puts entries into the HD EPGs that are native HD. All of the SBS HD programming (and almost all ABC HD programming) has simply been converted from SD.

There is an option in your IceTV account setup that simply copies all the SD EPG entries into the corresponding HD programs where there are gaps in the HD. Unfortunately, it doesn't mark the copied programs in any way, so if you do this, there's no way to tell whether the broadcast is native HD or not, or even broadcast at all (the ABC SD 7pm News is not converted to show on ABC HD, during the news, ABC HD just plays music from ABC Dig Radio and shows some program information.

Neon Kitten · Post by **Neon Kitten** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 17:28

So has Ice dropped the silly "Coming in 2008" rubbish from its HD listings yet?

My trial subscription runs out in a few weeks, and to be honest, I won't be renewing it at this stage. The network EPGs are perfectly usable (and if Beyonwiz eventually implements an EPG-scanning function in firmware, they'll be even more usable) as I've discovered in recent weeks.

Thanks to Ice's removal of HD listings I've had no choice but to disable it on the BW - and really, I see no point in going back unless the mythical Remote functionality finally turns up.

Jeff Parker · Post by **Jeff Parker** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 22:21

I agree. At the moment all data on upcoming programs are missing on many channels when I press the Guide key. It's ridiculous. I'm seriously considering cancelling my subscription to Ice TV. Don't know though what the alternatives are.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 08:14

Hi Jeff,

Jeff Parker wrote:I agree. At the moment all data on upcoming programs are missing on many channels when I press the Guide key. It's ridiculous. I'm seriously considering cancelling my subscription to Ice TV. Don't know though what the alternatives are.

Apart from SBS (who claim they have withdrawn all EPG services because they don't have the funds to provide such a service) all the stations are now broadcasting 7 day electronic program guides. We are still waiting for Channel 7's guide to be accurate (the HD channel contents are the same as the SD contents and does not always reflect what is actually being brodcast on the HD channel - they said this should be fixed by the end of January).

Regards,
Ian.

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:55

IanSav wrote: SBS (who claim they have withdrawn all EPG services because they don't have the funds to provide such a service

It's funny how SBS have set themselves up for total failure and continue to sabotage themselves every step of the way. Some of the bigger mistakes that come to mind:

* Replacing Margaret Pomeranz and David Stratton with arty-farty types, thus ruining the movie show.

* Introducing advertising within the programs.

* Withdrawing EIT EPG.

My SBS viewing has gone from about 25-30% of total TV viewing to about 0%. My timer list no longer contains any SBS shows. On the other hand, ABC and ABC2 account for about 70% and Ten comes in at about 20%, thanks to the Sci-Fi programming on Ten HD.

Neon Kitten · Post by **Neon Kitten** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 17:55

peteru wrote: It's funny how SBS have set themselves up for total failure and continue to sabotage themselves every step of the way. Some of the bigger mistakes that come to mind:

* Replacing Margaret Pomeranz and David Stratton with arty-farty types, thus ruining the movie show.

They didn't have much choice about David and Margaret - they quit, stating SBS's change of direction as the reason.

* Introducing advertising within the programs.

Hopefully eventually to be found illegal.

* Withdrawing EIT EPG.

They didn't withdraw it - they never had one.

Incidentally, the old "too expensive/difficult to implement a full EPG" excuse was also used by the commercial networks right up until the day before they announced they'd be doing one. Then they simply turned it on.