Commercial FTA Networks To Provide Full EPG!

[Neon Kitten]

Now we have two players in the EPG market - IceTV... and the networks themselves!

This announcement, I must say, was TOTALLY unexpected given the pig-headedness with which the FTA networks have outright refused viewers an EPG for years.

http://www.freetv.com.au/media/News-Med ... 141107.pdf

Commercial Free TV broadcasters announced today that they will all be openly broadcasting program listing information by 1 January 2008, creating Australia's first free electronic program guide (EPG).

Networks Nine and TEN will transmit their program data from Monday, 19 November, and the Seven Network is expected to commence from 1 January 2008.
WIN Television has started providing its 7 day EPG. Prime and NBN will commence on Monday 19 November and Southern Cross on 26 November.

Each network will be providing up to 7 days program data which is expected to be receivable free of charge by any digital set top box, integrated television or personal video recorder (PVR) that has an EPG functionality.

David Leckie, Chairman of FreeTV Australia said: ?This is an exciting new initiative for the free-to-air digital platform which will provide a compelling consumer offering that will further drive take-up of free digital television.?

Julie Flynn, the chief executive officer of Free TV Australia added: "This is a great benefit for consumers who will find it easier than ever to plan their Free TV viewing and never miss their favourite shows.

"Just as Free TV networks reach every household in Australia, we want our program data to be out there as well.

"This initiative will also accelerate take-up of free-to-view digital television, which given the rate of adoption, is now certainly in more than 30 per cent of Australian homes."

Today?s announcement builds on Free TV?s announcement earlier this year that broadcasters would be providing EPG data under licence to EPG service providers.
Ms Flynn added that although Free TV networks were agreeing to transmit the data free and unencrypted, broadcasters reserved all their rights with respect to copyright and protection of intellectual property.

[pjc3]

Wait until Ice go broke then withdraw it?

[dgrover]

I assume iCe can use it,.
I much prefer them as the romote function is worth the money to use them.
When its available.

[Neon Kitten]

Oh, if remote ever actually happens, I'll stick with Ice. THat sort of functionality is something you'll never get from FTA.

However, we have no idea how far away that is. Today's FTA announcement makes me wonder about the timing of Ice's one about Remote - is it REALLY close to being ready? Or was that announcement and offer just a pre-emptive strike against today's announcement by Free TV?

[IanSav]

Hi,

I suspect that this will not be welcome news to IceTV.

At least they will have other benefits like IceTV Remote and their proposed streaming services to maintain their income stream.

Perhaps Daniel can provide us with IceTV's take on this.

Regards,
Ian.

[Vortical]

I'm now wondering if that's what instigated the discount offer from Daniel posted yesterday.

[IanSav]

Hi Michael,



That makes a lot of sense.

Regards,
Ian.

[Chuckles]

I assume iCe can use it,.

"Ms Flynn added that although Free TV networks were agreeing to transmit the data free and unencrypted, broadcasters reserved all their rights with respect to copyright and protection of intellectual property. "

I doubt very much IceTV will be allowed to use it :-/

[Vortical]

Hi Michael,



That makes a lot of sense.

Regards,
Ian.

In any case if they can get IceTV remote up and running it will still be well worth it with the 25% discount.

But unfotunately that's all IceTV will having going for it after the FTA do a full EPG.

[IanSav]

Hi Michael,

In any case if they can get IceTV remote up and running it will still be well worth it with the 25% discount.

But unfotunately that's all IceTV will having going for it after the FTA do a full EPG.

If Beyonwiz grant me my wish for a management web interface directly to the Beyonwiz then even IceTV Remote will be of limited value.

Regards,
Ian.

[Neon Kitten]

If Beyonwiz grant me my wish for a management web interface directly to the Beyonwiz then even IceTV Remote will be of limited value.

Perhaps for you But for us normal people who have dynamic IP addresses and no programming skills to develop some app to capture only the first-run episodes of a series, I suspect Remote will be well worth the money

[IanSav]

Hi Neon Kitten,

Perhaps for you But for us normal people who have dynamic IP addresses and no programming skills to develop some app to capture only the first-run episodes of a series, I suspect Remote will be well worth the money

At least I can help you with the dynamic IP address issue...

http://www.dyndns.com/services/dns/dyndns/

Regards,
Ian.

[jpp]

I assume iCe can use it,.

"Ms Flynn added that although Free TV networks were agreeing to transmit the data free and unencrypted, broadcasters reserved all their rights with respect to copyright and protection of intellectual property. "

I doubt very much IceTV will be allowed to use it :-/

Just one thought here. If the TV stations are only going to broadcast their owm 7 day EPG, then how is the Wiz going to grab the EPGs of stations that ate not set on either of the 2 tuners? In other words, if you switch to a channel that you have not been watching, how will the EIT be filled PRIOR to you switching to that channel. My guess is that it won't be, which makes the single channel OTA EPG rather limited and may yet give ICE a decent foothold in the market.

I don't think there would be any copyright issues that haven't already been scrutenised what with the cahannel 9 debacle. As long as they don't copy the program's descriptions, they should be fine.

[madmax]

Just one thought here. If the TV stations are only going to broadcast their owm 7 day EPG, then how is the Wiz going to grab the EPGs of stations that ate not set on either of the 2 tuners? In other words, if you switch to a channel that you have not been watching, how will the EIT be filled PRIOR to you switching to that channel. My guess is that it won't be, which makes the single channel OTA EPG rather limited and may yet give ICE a decent foothold in the market.

Absolutely right. Until every station broadcasts all channels' EPG data like the UK system, Ice will still rule.

[prl]

Just one thought here. If the TV stations are only going to broadcast their owm 7 day EPG, then how is the Wiz going to grab the EPGs of stations that ate not set on either of the 2 tuners? In other words, if you switch to a channel that you have not been watching, how will the EIT be filled PRIOR to you switching to that channel. My guess is that it won't be, which makes the single channel OTA EPG rather limited and may yet give ICE a decent foothold in the market.

Absolutely right. Until every station broadcasts all channels' EPG data like the UK system, Ice will still rule.

As was suggested by jackmarshall (and has been suggested earlier in other threads), when the second tuner is not active, it could be used to farm EIT data from all the channels. While it was doing it, it could build a consensus time of day value from all the channels, too.

[Vortical]

With IceRemote

Is it possible to set the recording duration?
or
Is it limited to the IceGuide's program length?

If that last point above is true perhaps that is why padding is becoming such a priority prior to IceRemote being implemented for the BW units.

[prl]

With IceRemote

Is it possible to set the recording duration?
or
Is it limited to the IceGuide's program length?

If that last point above is true perhaps that is why padding is becoming such a priority prior to IceRemote being implemented for the BW units.

I had a look at the Remote Web site and the user interface has no ability to set padding or to change the scheduled time. The latter wouldn't make much sense with "Any Time" Remote entries that follow the program rather than the time slot. Padding would need to be done on the Beyonwiz, with the usual problems about what to do when recording back-to-back programs on the same service, or back-to-back programs on different services when the second tuner is otherwise occupied.

[Gully]

I believe IceTV Remote relies on padding being done by the PVR.

[Vortical]

ok for example

I want to record Top Gear and on IceRemote it's programmed for 7:30 to 8:30.

I set it to record through IceRemote but can't change the recording duration through IceRemote.

A timer then appears in my S1 timer list for Top Gear 7:30 - 8:30 with a duration of 1 hour

I then have padding set up on the BW that allows it to record the extra amount before and after the show that I set and that's it.

I sincerely hope padding is ignored for back to back recordings but we'll see what BW decides on soon enough.
With IceTV Remote padding is going to be extremely important on rhe BW units

[pvogel]

I don't think there would be any copyright issues that haven't already been scrutenised what with the cahannel 9 debacle. As long as they don't copy the program's descriptions, they should be fine.

I don't think that's correct - even without the program's descriptions copying the rest of the epg would probably be considered a substantial enough part of the work to constitiute copyright infringement.

PV

[prl]

...
I sincerely hope padding is ignored for back to back recordings but we'll see what BW decides on soon enough.

For the benefit of folk not in the beta testers group, there was extensive and animated discussion about the way that padding should be implemented after the release of the first beta that had it. A new beta that addresses the discussion hasn't appeared yet.

With IceTV Remote padding is going to be extremely important on the BW units

Agreed, though I think it's very useful for EPG timer setting as well (but there are definitely those who disagree).

[jpp]

I don't think there would be any copyright issues that haven't already been scrutenised what with the cahannel 9 debacle. As long as they don't copy the program's descriptions, they should be fine.

I don't think that's correct - even without the program's descriptions copying the rest of the epg would probably be considered a substantial enough part of the work to constitiute copyright infringement.

PV

Peter, (you are the Peter ex ICETV aren't you?), isn't that what ICETV does now? The ABC and SBS don't care, leaving only the commercial channels, just as before the court case. What "inside" info do you have that we don't?

[jpp]

Just one thought here. If the TV stations are only going to broadcast their owm 7 day EPG, then how is the Wiz going to grab the EPGs of stations that ate not set on either of the 2 tuners? In other words, if you switch to a channel that you have not been watching, how will the EIT be filled PRIOR to you switching to that channel. My guess is that it won't be, which makes the single channel OTA EPG rather limited and may yet give ICE a decent foothold in the market.

Absolutely right. Until every station broadcasts all channels' EPG data like the UK system, Ice will still rule.

As was suggested by jackmarshall (and has been suggested earlier in other threads), when the second tuner is not active, it could be used to farm EIT data from all the channels. While it was doing it, it could build a consensus time of day value from all the channels, too.

Fair enough - been away fro a while. Peter U suggested that carrying the complete EPG for every channel by every channel would cause a large overhead. Is this really true though? The data rate is low and the amount of info, being text based, is bugger all. As mentioned before, it's how the Poms do it.

[pvogel]

Peter, (you are the Peter ex ICETV aren't you?), isn't that what ICETV does now? The ABC and SBS don't care, leaving only the commercial channels, just as before the court case. What "inside" info do you have that we don't?

Yes that's me.

IceTV doesn't copy anything from the networks' guides - they build their own from the ground up, mainly from historical scheduling and by researching multiple sources. If you want to know the details, the Nine judgment reveals all:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/ ... /1172.html

PV

[Gully]

Fair enough - been away fro a while. Peter U suggested that carrying the complete EPG for every channel by every channel would cause a large overhead. Is this really true though? The data rate is low and the amount of info, being text based, is bugger all. As mentioned before, it's how the Poms do it.

Except that in England the muxs are organised very differently so you get a mix of channels in each, so it would be like getting ABC, SBS, 7, 9 and 10's primary channels in one, ABC2, SBS News, etc in another. As you receive the whole mux when you tune into any of the channels it makes it much easier to send a mix of EPG info for those channels. And it is definitely not loaded for much more than that till you move through to other channels on other mux.

[jpp]

Peter, (you are the Peter ex ICETV aren't you?), isn't that what ICETV does now? The ABC and SBS don't care, leaving only the commercial channels, just as before the court case. What "inside" info do you have that we don't?

Yes that's me.

IceTV doesn't copy anything from the networks' guides - they build their own from the ground up, mainly from historical scheduling and by researching multiple sources. If you want to know the details, the Nine judgment reveals all:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/ ... /1172.html

PV

Thanks Peter. That should mean that ICETV is not under a cloud and has nothing to worry about. But, like everyone else I do wish that they and BW get on with the job of delivering ICE Remote - maybe they are, but we haven't heard about it .

[Neon Kitten]

Peter U suggested that carrying the complete EPG for every channel by every channel would cause a large overhead. Is this really true though? The data rate is low and the amount of info, being text based, is bugger all. As mentioned before, it's how the Poms do it.

And the thing is, the data is sent sequentially. More channels' EPG data being sent doesn't equal higher bandwidth.

[prl]

And the thing is, the data is sent sequentially. More channels' EPG data being sent doesn't equal higher bandwidth.

More data doesn't need more bandwidth?

[Chuckles]

And the thing is, the data is sent sequentially. More channels' EPG data being sent doesn't equal higher bandwidth.

More data doesn't need more bandwidth?

No, it doesn't.

Bandwidth is only one dimension - time is the other.

To transfer a larger amount of data within the same bandwidth just takes longer.

[prl]

And the thing is, the data is sent sequentially. More channels' EPG data being sent doesn't equal higher bandwidth.

More data doesn't need more bandwidth?

No, it doesn't.

Bandwidth is only one dimension - time is the other.

To transfer a larger amount of data within the same bandwidth just takes longer.

True, but there was no mention of that.

[jpp]

And the thing is, the data is sent sequentially. More channels' EPG data being sent doesn't equal higher bandwidth.

More data doesn't need more bandwidth?

No, it doesn't.

Bandwidth is only one dimension - time is the other.

To transfer a larger amount of data within the same bandwidth just takes longer.

True, but there was no mention of that.

Just think of the EPG as being but a very small subset of the 600 odd Teletext pages that channel 7 SD puts onto its data stream. It takes quite a while for all the pages to appear on your screen, so the data rate is piddling. If it took but a few seconds (and that's be nice if it took only that long), the data rate would be proportionally higher.

[madmax]

As was suggested by jackmarshall (and has been suggested earlier in other threads), when the second tuner is not active, it could be used to farm EIT data from all the channels. While it was doing it, it could build a consensus time of day value from all the channels, too.

Actually I just had a thought, if this idea is too difficult then maybe the Wiz can just update and save each channel's EPG to the HDD each time you change to that channel. So the guide will remain fully populated unless you haven't visited a particular channel for several days, in which case you just need to briefly visit that channel until the guide is updated to 7 days worth again. Sounds feasible?

[j s]

As was suggested by jackmarshall (and has been suggested earlier in other threads), when the second tuner is not active, it could be used to farm EIT data from all the channels. While it was doing it, it could build a consensus time of day value from all the channels, too.

Actually I just had a thought, if this idea is too difficult then maybe the Wiz can just update and save each channel's EPG to the HDD each time you change to that channel. So the guide will remain fully populated unless you haven't visited a particular channel for several days, in which case you just need to briefly visit that channel until the guide is updated to 7 days worth again. Sounds feasible?

That's what most STB do - though to flash memory not HDD and (for the moment) only with N&N (because that's all there is). I'm pretty sure though that the BW will not use N&N to populate the EPG.

The data rate needed for an EPG is quite small compared to the ~30Mb/s rate of each channel. The equivalent of the full ~900kB IceTV XML file using 1% of the total would be received in less than 30 seconds. If the standard allows for the EPG data to be compressed (which seems likely) then less than 5 seconds would be needed using 1% of the bandwidth.

[Mantorok]

Here's Ice's response to the recent FreeTV announcment: http://www.icetv.com.au/news/?p=77

[Neon Kitten]

Here's Ice's response to the recent FreeTV announcment: http://www.icetv.com.au/news/?p=77

And it's bollocks.

Based on the information IceTV has been given by FreeTV Australia, it seems there are still no plans to provide the EPG data to any digital recording devices that have an in-built 30 second Skip Button or fast forward speeds of 60x or more. That accounts for about 99% of IceTV users.

Funny, then, how my Beyonwiz P1 and my old Wintal/Digenius PVR both receive the EPG data just fine. Both support "ad skip functionality" as defined by the morons at Free TV Australia.

Ice should know better than to come out with nonsense like this. There is absolutely no way that the FTA networks can selectively deliver their EPG. Either everyone gets it, or (as it's been for 7 years up until today) nobody does.

That FUD masquerading as a "secret" letter from Free TV Australia was an attempt to strong-arm PVR manufacturers into modifying future products for the Australian market to fit in with Free TV Australia's delusions of grandeur. That is something that, in my opinion, will never, ever happen in reality.

[IanSav]

Hi Neon Kitten,

And it's bollocks.

Based on the information IceTV has been given by FreeTV Australia, it seems there are still no plans to provide the EPG data to any digital recording devices that have an in-built 30 second Skip Button or fast forward speeds of 60x or more. That accounts for about 99% of IceTV users.

Funny, then, how my Beyonwiz P1 and my old Wintal/Digenius PVR both receive the EPG data just fine. Both support "ad skip functionality" as defined by the morons at Free TV Australia.

My DP-S1 seems to be picking up lots of new program details on Channel 9 and Channel 10. I haven't stopped to have a play but there is certainly much more than Now and Next data available.

Ice should know better than to come out with nonsense like this. There is absolutely no way that the FTA networks can selectively deliver their EPG. Either everyone gets it, or (as it's been for 7 years up until today) nobody does.

That FUD masquerading as a "secret" letter from Free TV Australia was an attempt to strong-arm PVR manufacturers into modifying future products for the Australian market to fit in with Free TV Australia's delusions of grandeur. That is something that, in my opinion, will never, ever happen in reality.

It is this aspect that has me particularly worried. I get very concerned when I see small tails (like FreeTV) trying to wag the big dog (like the worldwide DVB-T standards body), it just isn't right or reasonable. If FreeTV get manufacturers to customise their DVB-T code to specifically service Australian only wrinkles in the standard I can see many manufacturers refusing to provide products for Australia. I can also see current players deciding that Australia is too different and too problematic to continue to support their products here. All in all if this happens then I think it will be very bad for our market.

Regards,
Ian.

[Vortical]

They obviously hate us pvr users with a passion.

To be honest it's like them telling all vcr manufacturer's to remove the ff button.

If this is true there would be a massive drop in sales as I'd imagine most people would buy a pvr for it's ability to skip ads.

The broadcasters have done this to themselves by making ad breaks longer and longer until people couldn't stand them so much that these devices arrived in the first place.

I also have a funny feeling we might see pop-up advertising within programs sooner rather than later.

[Chuckles]

Perhaps now is a pertinent time to make some MPs, or MPs to be, aware of this attempt by commercial interests to subvert the publicly owned spectrum to become what, in all intents, is a privately controlled data casting service, rather than the publiclly accessible broadcasting system on which basis that spectrum is currently licensed.

If the commercial TV stations want to use the spectrum to broadcast data over which they then want to intimately control the end use of, then perhaps we, the owners of that spectrum, should revise the terms (and rates) under which that spectrum is licensed...

[IanSav]

Hi Michael,

I also have a funny feeling we might see pop-up advertising within programs sooner rather than later.

It is already happening.

Regards,
Ian.

[danielicetv]

Here's Ice's response to the recent FreeTV announcment: http://www.icetv.com.au/news/?p=77

And it's bollocks.

Based on the information IceTV has been given by FreeTV Australia, it seems there are still no plans to provide the EPG data to any digital recording devices that have an in-built 30 second Skip Button or fast forward speeds of 60x or more. That accounts for about 99% of IceTV users.

Funny, then, how my Beyonwiz P1 and my old Wintal/Digenius PVR both receive the EPG data just fine. Both support "ad skip functionality" as defined by the morons at Free TV Australia.

Ice should know better than to come out with nonsense like this. There is absolutely no way that the FTA networks can selectively deliver their EPG. Either everyone gets it, or (as it's been for 7 years up until today) nobody does.

That FUD masquerading as a "secret" letter from Free TV Australia was an attempt to strong-arm PVR manufacturers into modifying future products for the Australian market to fit in with Free TV Australia's delusions of grandeur. That is something that, in my opinion, will never, ever happen in reality.

It's actually quite simple, if there tactics don't work and boxes don't update then they simply pull the feed, or slightly change it so that any boxes that have not been updated can't get the guide. In the letter to PVR manufacturers it quite clearly states that this can be removed at any time.

In case you missed the most recent articles in both ITWire (http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15400/1085/) and The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/news/technolog ... 72583.html) this "secret" letter has been confirmed by FreeTV Australia, along with there intent.

[Martyn]

Hi,

I can't understand what the fuss is about. Why can't BW disable the facility to skip ads, on all models, then provide us with a code to enable it, just like multi region codes on DVD players.

That way the PVR are compliant with the law and this permits the use of the FTA guides, if required you can enable ad skip by entering a code (once off would be nice)

Martyn

[Neon Kitten]

It's actually quite simple, if there tactics don't work and boxes don't update then they simply pull the feed

I doubt that will happen. I really do. Ten, for example, has gone as far as obliterating their VPG because it's no longer needed. This is a change that is here to stay, one driven by, I strongly suspect, one or more of the FTA networks pressuring Free TV to change policy on EPGs. Why? The HD multichanneling that's starting up, that's why. The ONLY way they'll be able to let viewers know what's on is via an EPG. Printed guides aren't going to be listing the HD secondary programming any time soon.

or slightly change it so that any boxes that have not been updated can't get the guide.

How? Answer: they can't.

In the letter to PVR manufacturers it quite clearly states that this can be removed at any time.

Idle threats from a toothless tiger. Someone really ought to ask the actual networks what THEY think.

There's a very interesting story behind all this that'll eventually come out, I'm sure of that. This didn't just happen. By the sound of their "secret" letter, someone has forced Free TV Australia's hand with this one.

In case you missed the most recent articles in both ITWire (http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15400/1085/) and The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/news/technolog ... 72583.html) this "secret" letter has been confirmed by FreeTV Australia, along with there intent.

I saw this morning that it had been confirmed, along with the equipment manufacturers' general response of "yeah, not bloody likely". I would like to see the actual letter, which so far has proven elusive.

Manufacturers are NOT going to play ball on this. Free TV has to suck it up and get on with being part of the future, or waste millions in pointless legal action that will inevitably fail.

It's all quite pathetic, really.

[tonymy01]

It is just ludicrous to me how ad skipping and EPG can even be spoken about in the same sentence, neither feature is even remotely related. The same thing happened when Nine took ICEtv to court, peddling the same crap about ad skipping also.
EPG just helps me see a little easier what is on. If it doesn't exist, I can still do everything to record, pirate, skip ads etc, so I just don't understand all the fuss that the networks and freetv are kicking up about this??

[GarFin]

It is just ludicrous to me how ad skipping and EPG can even be spoken about in the same sentence, neither feature is even remotely related.

Exactly..

So, what has prompted all this "good nature" from the FTA channels? (EPG's , new HD content/channels , and "Fast-tracked" content, direct from USA ?) I think it all comes back to an attempt to curb the amount of people now 'downloading' content, ad-free, from the internet, a matter of hours after the show has aired O.S. (psudo-NVOD)

will it work? time will tell...

[IanSav]

Hi Gary,

Like the Avatar!

Regards,
Ian.

[KJay]

Don't worry... It's easily fixed.
When the networks start broadcasting the "do not record" code with the program, it will solve all our problems..

I hope it's not part of the Wiz's firmware/hardware.

cheers...

[znelbok]

One thing that struck me a s funny last night was that SC10 don't have adds on their HD channel, yet there is no extended EPG on it. They drop to their HD promo loop while the SD channel is playing the adds.

Mick