U4 Timers

[raymondjpg]

I've recently replaced an ageing P2 with a U4. The U4 has IceTV Interactive enabled.

EPG and timers are coming across as expected.

However, the timers have subtitles from the EPG in the Description field. I would like to see the program descriptions in the Description field.

Is this something that needs to be addressed in the U4, or IceTV plugin, or should I take it up with IceTV?

[prl]

That's how it's always been for IceTV on all models.

If it's changed it would be as an option because it's not what I want and I'd probably be doing the change.

[raymondjpg]

That's how it's always been for IceTV on all models.

If it's changed it would be as an option because it's not what I want and I'd probably be doing the change.

Then I'll probably take it up with IceTV. In the past with a Topfield and P2 I either haven't been concerned about what was in the description field of the timers, or it wasn't something immediately apparent or noticeable. However, from my recollection the description field in the EPG was available in the P2 on hitting OK a couple of times in the guide, so it would appear (from my recollection) that the description field came across in the EPG.

In the U4, at least in the Webif interface, there is no description in the EPG, only the titles and subtitle in what, at least in the FTA EPG, appears to be the description field.

You are welcome to your opinion. I still prefer to see a description in the description field of both timers and the EPG.

[prl]

Taking it up with IceTV would probaably result in Daniel Hall emailing me a request to implement it, if he thought it was a good idea.

The implementation would have to be in the Beyonwiz IceTV plugin. Although peteru wrote it, I do almost all the maintenance.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...However, the timers have subtitles from the EPG in the Description field. I would like to see the program descriptions in the Description field.

Aren't the timers on your T2 showing the same way as your U4?

[prl]

I'd be very surprised if it were otherwise.

[raymondjpg]

...However, the timers have subtitles from the EPG in the Description field. I would like to see the program descriptions in the Description field.

Aren't the timers on your T2 showing the same way as your U4?

I prefer to run my T2 with EPGRefresh and autotimers. Viewed in OpenWebif the EPG in the T2 has the program description in the description field, in some cases truncated, so it doesn't take up too much space, whereas what appears to be the full description appears under the title in the timers list.

This I like to see. It is not something I was concerned about with earlier PVRs that didn't have a Web interface.

You can switch from the IceTV EPG to the FTA EPG and see for yourself. It would be easier if I could just post images here, but this is an example of what I see:

1. In the T2 (FTA EPG)
Harrow
20.04.2018 20:25 - 20.04.2018 21:50
ABC
While Harrow investigates the deaths of a mother and son in a car accident, the mystery of Robert Quinn's disappearance escalates into a homicide investigation.

2. In the U4 (IceTV EPG)

Harrow
Fri 20.04.2018 20:20 - 20.04.2018 21:45
ABC
Pia Mater

I'd be very surprised if it were otherwise.

If I were to be more colourful in my language I'd say the latter tells me sweet FA compared with (or to, whichever is your preference) the former.

[prl]

Whatever's being compared to what, there's that old saying about catching flies, honey and vinegar.

[raymondjpg]

Whatever's being compared to what, there's that old saying about catching flies, honey and vinegar.

Forgive me. I thought here that neither honey nor vinegar would have the desired effect.

[Paul_oz53]

I dont understand the problem. I use IceTV exclusively on 5 machines. Just checked Harrow in the EPG. Mine showed:

Harrow
8:30-9:30pm
Pia Mater
While Harrow investigates...

Given I can see all the relevant data including what's recording in the graphical EPG in one keystroke, why bother with what the timer entry shows in two keystrokes?

[Gully]

Whatever's being compared to what, there's that old saying about catching flies, honey and vinegar.

Forgive me. I thought here that neither honey nor vinegar would have the desired effect.

The point being made is that this forum is filled with people who spend their own time voluntarily helping each other so it is always better to recognise that when posting. Additionally as Peter has posted he is the one who would need to fix the problem you are raising so getting him onside who also be a good start.

Having said that as Paul has now posted I am wondering why the info is different between Ice and FTA for an ABC show. They are sourced identically.

Raymond you might need to run through details for your set up.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

The FTA EPG sometimes populates the episode description into the episode title and other times populates both an episode title and description. Your example of FTA Harrow is the former.
OWIF shows the episode title.
Harrow has an episode title containing the description. Compare that to the other two examples in the attachment. If you look closely at the font sizing in OWIF and you'll see the difference in the fields.


A timer will get either the episode title or the episode description.

[raymondjpg]

Whatever's being compared to what, there's that old saying about catching flies, honey and vinegar.

Forgive me. I thought here that neither honey nor vinegar would have the desired effect.

The point being made is that this forum is filled with people who spend their own time voluntarily helping each other so it is always better to recognise that when posting. Additionally as Peter has posted he is the one who would need to fix the problem you are raising so getting him onside who also be a good start.

Having said that as Paul has now posted I am wondering why the info is different between Ice and FTA for an ABC show. They are sourced identically.

Raymond you might need to run through details for your set up.

I never argue with a Moderator, but I would like to point out that I never post here, or on any forum come to that, solely for my own benefit. I Hope that what I say, ask, or add, will also be of benefit to others.

I don't know what details of my setup I can add. My T2 works with autotimers, my U4 with IceTV. I think that what Paul may be referring to is clicking OK on an IceTV EPG entry will bring up the program description, whereas I was more concerned to see the description against the timer entry in the Webif interface. It is possible, though probably unlikely, that we are looking at different firmware revisions. Mine is currently on version 20180417, updated from 20180408 by an online update. I don't know if different browsers would give different results.

[raymondjpg]

A timer will get either the episode title or the episode description.

Perhaps I'm seeing something different? I'm not practiced at inserting images, but this is how I see them in my Webif interface.

IceTV.jpg (10.4 KiB) Viewed 4619 times

The attachment IceTV.jpg is no longer available

[raymondjpg]

The FTA JPG kept dropping off:

FTA EPG.jpg (11.89 KiB) Viewed 4619 times

[Gully]

I never argue with a Moderator, but I would like to point out that I never post here, or on any forum come to that, solely for my own benefit. I Hope that what I say, ask, or add, will also be of benefit to others.

That's fine and understood.

My main point was getting posts that concentrated on the details rather than the poster and you have added some more details in your post though here you start to talk about the description against the timer entry but earlier you were talking about the EPG entry.

It might be worth providing some more clarity of what you are seeing where from each source and also where you are located in case that is a factor (though less likely with the ABC).

[raymondjpg]

That's fine and understood.

My main point was getting posts that concentrated on the details rather than the poster and you have added some more details in your post though here you start to talk about the description against the timer entry but earlier you were talking about the EPG entry.

It might be worth providing some more clarity of what you are seeing where from each source and also where you are located in case that is a factor (though less likely with the ABC).

I was saying that timers pick up their information from the EPG, or at least that is how I understand it. In the IceTV EPG, there is the same paucity of information in the EPG as in the timers. I'll try to add an image to show this:

The attachment snapshot.jpg is no longer available

Now this is from the U4 with the IceTV EPG. When timers are created, they come across like the IceTV.jpg I posted earlier.

With the FTA EPG I see this:

[Grumpy_Geoff]

A timer will get either the episode title or the episode description.

Perhaps I'm seeing something different? I'm not practiced at inserting images, but this is how I see them in my Webif interface.

FTA EPG.jpg
IceTV.jpg

Seeing? No, I think just not understanding. Different data is being provided in the EPGs, so the timers are being created with apples and oranges.

IceTV -
Program/Series Name: Motor Sport: MotoGP
Episode Name/Title: 2018 - Race 3 - Grand Prix Of The Americas
Description: Coming to you live from the Circuit of the Americas is the Red Bull Grand Prix of the America's HorsePower Rodeo - or as their own advertising assures us, the 'greatest show on two wheels!' As the only North American round of this championship brings a thrilling combination speed, guts, and the latest race and track technology.


FTA -
Program/Series Name: LIVE: MotoGP 2018
Episode Name/Title: _not provided_
Description: Join us live on ONE in Austin, Texas from the Grand Prix of The Americas for all the action of Race 3 of MotoGP 2018. Race start 5:00am (AEST).

The timer created from IceTV EPG gets a description of "2018 - Race 3 - Grand Prix Of The Americas" because the event in the EPG has an Episode Name/Title. If it didn't have an Episode Name/Title then it'd get "Coming to you live from the Circuit ...".

The timer created from the FTA EPG gets a description of "Join us live on ONE in Austin, Texas from the Grand Prix of The Americas for all ..." because there is no Episode Name/Title, so the timer description is taken from the event Description.

[raymondjpg]

The second attachment is from the U4 IceTV EPG.

[raymondjpg]

Seeing? No, I think just not understanding. Different data is being provided in the EPGs, so the timers are being created with apples and oranges.

I think we can agree on that. If what I have posted makes sense to you, what I am saying is that I prefer to see what the FTA EPG, and timers, are telling me than what the IceTV EPG and timers are not telling me.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...If what I have posted makes sense to you, what I am saying is that I prefer to see what the FTA EPG, and timers, are telling me than what the IceTV EPG and timers are not telling me.

I understand that. The source data is different. You don't like it being different.
Go and request IceTV customise their device EPG to have a user setting such that either a) have seperate Episode Name/Title and Description fields as now (their "subtitle" and "desc" JSON fields) , b) combine the Episode Name/Title and Description fields into the Episode Name/Title field, or c) have the Episode Name/Title consist only of the data from their "desc" field and null the Description
Of course, the default should be option a).

Actual IceTV EPG data for Thursday's Berlin Station as sent to our T4 -

Code: Select all

{"id":"138267817"
,"eit_id":"40684"
,"series_id":"47002"
,"episode_id":"274015"
,"channel_id":"97"
,"date":"2017"
,"season":"2"
,"episode-num":"9"
,"start":"2018-04-18T14:35:00+00:00"
,"stop":"2018-04-18T15:35:00+00:00"
,"title":"Berlin Station"
,"subtitle":"Winners Right The History Books"
,"desc":"Berlin Station continues to search for the truth behind Katerina Gerhardt's assassination and Nick Fischer's (Scott Winters) role in it, as a protest outside the US Embassy and calls to turn Hector (Rhys Ifans) over escalate."
,"credits":{"director":"Olen Steinhauer"
,"actors":[{"name":"Richard Armitage"},{"name":"Rhys Ifans"},{"name":"Leland Orser"},{"name":"Michelle Forbes"}]}
,"category":[{"name":"Drama","eit":"0x10"},{"name":"Thriller","eit":"0x11"}]
,"language":"English"
,"country":"United States"
,"video":{"aspect":"16:9","colour":"YES","quality":"HDTV"}
,"subtitles":{"onscreen":"English"}
,"part_of_series":"Yes"
,"rating":"MA"
,"external_ids":{"tvdb_series":"314995"
,"imdb_series":"tt5191110"}}

[Grumpy_Geoff]

It sounds like raymondjpg would like IceTV scheduling without their EPG.
I wonder if you could have the combination set that way - 'Enable EIT EPG' set to enabled, 'Show EIT now/next in infobar' to enabled. What would happen to the EPG data that comes in from Ice - would it be discarded?
Likely a question for the two Peters.

[raymondjpg]

I understand that. The source data is different. You don't like it being different.
Go and request IceTV customise their device EPG to have a user setting such that either a) have seperate Episode Name/Title and Description fields as now (their "subtitle" and "desc" JSON fields) , b) combine the Episode Name/Title and Description fields into the Episode Name/Title field, or c) have the Episode Name/Title consist only of the data from their "desc" field and null the Description

Something like that probably. I'll try.

[Paul_oz53]

That your concern is OWIF does explain why I didn't understand the problem you see.

What I get in OWIF is a mixed bag. Some timers are detailed EG Harrow. Others spartan, like your examples.

I generally have a low expectation of IceTV when it comes to precision but I'm addicted to it as an easier option than autotimers. So, I tend to ignore the absence of episode information. Rather, I tend to use IMDB or Wikipedia when I want details like "where have I seen that face before."

Just how much of the issue is down to the source and how much to formatting is another story.
Cheers, Paul

[raymondjpg]

That your concern is OWIF does explain why I didn't understand the problem you see.

What I get in OWIF is a mixed bag. Some timers are detailed EG Harrow. Others spartan, like your examples.

I generally have a low expectation of IceTV when it comes to precision but I'm addicted to it as an easier option than autotimers. So, I tend to ignore the absence of episode information. Rather, I tend to use IMDB or Wikipedia when I want details like "where have I seen that face before."

Just how much of the issue is down to the source and how much to formatting is another story.
Cheers, Paul

OWIF is a great advance for me over previous PVRs. I did have a Topfield once with a TAP but no IceTV that gave a similar, but definitely inferior web interface where IIRC I could set timers and initiate ftp file transfers.

I haven't had the U4 for long enough to tell if I see a mixed bag, but in the current EPG that I have the OWIF is showing the subtitles in the descriptions field across the whole EPG (see my previous post for an example). It is not so easy right now for me to generate an xml file of the IceTV EPG but this image shows how the xml file is interpreted by TV Scheduler Pro:

When parsing the xml feed to generate timers TV Scheduler looks at the first line and calls "Will & Grace" the title. It calls the text in parentheses "Love Plus One" the subtitle. It is the subtitle that is displayed under the title in the OWIF display of the IceTV EPG in the U4, and under the title of the timers generated by IceTV in the U4.

I would prefer to see the description i.e. the information in the box at the end of the image, rather than the subtitle information under the title in the IceTV generated EPG and timers in the U4. I understand that it might not be everyone's preference, and that IceTV has never done it this way, but as I said before i haven't had the benefit before of OWIF with an IceTV Interactive enabled PVR.

I agree with you about the precision of IceTV. That is why I use EPGRefresh and autotimers in the T2. However, I wouldn't be without an IceTV cross-check particularly because of their provision of a repeat flag in the Info field of the image.

Again, with the benefit of OWIF, I can view timers in both PVRs, and execute file transfers to my PC, from one position, with both PVRs on standby, and without need to turn them or the TVs on. I think it's great!

From what I can tell it is more an issue of formatting than source, as the description information is certainly available in the OWIF view of the IeTV generated EPG by clicking on the title.

[raymondjpg]

I should add just for completeness, and because I haven't said it previously, that the subtitle information provided by IceTV is definitely valuable and something not provided in the FTA EPG.

So my preference would be for the information to be presented in the U4 in a similar way that it is presented in TV Scheduler i.e. with the title and subtitle following the title in parentheses, and the description underneath that title and subtitle.

[MrQuade]

Correct me if I am wrong, bit isn't this just a matter of how IceTV choose to populate the description and short description field in their EPG?

The Wiz just populates the corresponding fields in its EPG.

If you want the two fields swapped, then that is up to IceTV to deliver them that way.

[raymondjpg]

Correct me if I am wrong, bit isn't this just a matter of how IceTV choose to populate the description and short description field in their EPG?

The Wiz just populates the corresponding fields in its EPG.

If you want the two fields swapped, then that is up to IceTV to deliver them that way.

I really couldn't say. I don't know enough about how the IceTV feed is used to populate the TX series of PVRs (as IceTV terms them). My understanding from an earlier post was that it was as determined by the IceTV plugin.

Perhaps your query wasn't directed to me.

[adoxa]

Here's a patch (untested) to name the IceTV timer (and hence recording) as "Title (Subtitle)", using the description as intended. This will only affect new timers, not existing.

Code: Select all

diff --git a/lib/python/Plugins/SystemPlugins/IceTV/plugin.py b/lib/python/Plugins/SystemPlugins/IceTV/plugin.py
index ffd9a8822..c00522a3e 100644
--- a/lib/python/Plugins/SystemPlugins/IceTV/plugin.py
+++ b/lib/python/Plugins/SystemPlugins/IceTV/plugin.py
@@ -232,6 +232,9 @@ class EPGFetcher(object):
                 duration = stop - start
             title = show.get("title", "").encode("utf8")
             short = show.get("subtitle", "").encode("utf8")
+            if short:
+                title += " (%s)" % short
+                short = ""
             extended = show.get("desc", "").encode("utf8")
             res[channel_id].append((start, duration, title, short, extended, 0, event_id))
         return res

[raymondjpg]

Here's a patch (untested) to name the IceTV timer (and hence recording) as "Title (Subtitle)", using the description as intended. This will only affect new timers, not existing.

Thank you for this effort. Not being familiar with your patches, how do you execute them? And if necessary, how do you uninstall them?

[adoxa]

Unzip to a USB drive and plug it into the Beyonwiz. Bring up the menu (from live TV) and select "Sources / Files". Navigate to the USB drive and press OK on the icetv folder. Highlight setup.sh, press OK and select "Run script". Restart for it to take effect. Repeat to remove.

[prl]

Correct me if I am wrong,

Since you insist...

bit isn't this just a matter of how IceTV choose to populate the description and short description field in their EPG?

The Wiz just populates the corresponding fields in its EPG.

If you want the two fields swapped, then that is up to IceTV to deliver them that way.

raymondjpg's question isn't about the EPG, it's about the description inserted into timers from the EPG.

The full story is that the way that IceTV and the FTA broadcasters populate the EPG short event descriptor and extended event descriptor are quite different.

IceTV consistently uses the short event descriptor as an episode label where appropriate. This is sometimes the episode name, as in Harrow/Pia Mater already cited, or a series/episode number, as, for example Think Tank/Series 1: Episode 56. The episode name is empty where it's not appropriate, e.g. for movies or things that don't have a series/episode structure (e.g. news broadcasts). The extended event descriptor is used for a longer description of the event. For Cleopatra/Cleopatra: Love And Death, it's "At the age of just 25, Cleopatra thought she had secured both her and Egypt's future by becoming the mistress to Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar, and mother to his son, Caesarian. But Caesar's brutal assassination by his own senators plunged Cleopatra back into a world of uncertainty and fear. Desperate to save her own life and protect her beloved Egypt, Cleopatra knows she must once again seek out, and seduce, another Roman protector. For her, the obvious candidate is Caesar's trusted general- the Roman aristocrat Mark Antony. It will prove to be a passionate, but ultimately fatal, choice."

In FTA, things are more "interesting". The intended use of the EPG short event descriptor and extended event descriptor in the FTA EIT EPG is given in the Freeview Operational Practice OP-44 Implementation Guide for DVB EIT Present/Following Information (EITp/f) (yes, that's only for the EPG Now/Next information, but OP58 says that that part applies to the whole EPG).

OP-44 says that the short event descriptor contains "a short description of the event in text form (limited to 200 characters)" (as well as the program title) and that the extended event descriptor "provide[s] a longer text description or synopsis of an event, which may be used either in addition, or complimentary [sic] to, the short_event_descriptor." A not particularly useful example is given in the section about the extended event descriptor.

The broadcasters have taken a fairly liberal interpretation of what that already pretty non-specific guide specifies. Some fill only the short event descriptor, some only the extended event descriptor (and there may be some who switch between them depending on the length of the information). Some put identical information in both.

When EPG event details are shown in the EPG screens and in the media selection screen, if the first 20 characters of the short and extended descriptors are the same, the extended description is shown, otherwise the two are concatenated, short descriptor then long descriptor (with a skin-determined separator if the short descriptor is not empty).

A timer has only only a single description entry, not two. When a timer is created, that description is filled from the EPG by using the short description if it isn't empty, otherwise the long description. An IceTV timer request does not contain a timer descriptor.

A possible implementation of what raymondjpg requested would be to have an option to swap that order, so that the long descriptor is used if it isn't empty, otherwise the short descriptor. Rigidly choosing one or the other won't work in an FTA EPG environment. The concatenation used for the display of EPG details (or something like it) might also be a possibility.

I don't think that a non-option change is a sensible choice.

A side-effect of changing how the timer description is filled is that if the user selects "Long filenames" in MENU>Setup>TV>Recording settings>Composition of recording filenames, the timer description is used as part of the recording filename, as: YYYYMMDD HHMM - Service name - Program name - Timer description.* (with the description being truncated so that the filename length doesn't exceed 255 characters).

Changing the way that the FTA description information is fed into the timer description won't affect that much, however, in the current implementation, that gives a quite useful format for the name when IceTV is used for series recordings, as, for the Harrow example: 20180420 2030 - ABC HD - Harrow - Pia Mater.ts

A non-optional change would block that fairly useful use of the IceTV short description.

It would also be possible for the IceTV plugin to swap the short and long descriptions when it inserts them into the EPG cache, but: 1) IMO that would be rather silly, and 2) that would truncate the long description to 200 characters when it is shoehorned into the short descriptor, because the EPG cache format is the broadcast EIT EPG format, even when IceTV is used.

[raymondjpg]

Unzip to a USB drive and plug it into the Beyonwiz. Bring up the menu (from live TV) and select "Sources / Files". Navigate to the USB drive and press OK on the icetv folder. Highlight setup.sh, press OK and select "Run script". Restart for it to take effect. Repeat to remove.

OK. Thanks for that advice.

[prl]

Here's a patch (untested) to name the IceTV timer (and hence recording) as "Title (Subtitle)", using the description as intended. ...

I'm less confident about what's intended by the code

Using that patch will also prevent Series2Folder from working the way it's intended to.

[raymondjpg]

raymondjpg's question isn't about the EPG, it's about the description inserted into timers from the EPG.

Just for clarification my original request was about the description inserted into timers from the EPG. It then extended to the descriptions inserted into the EPG itself, as I was under the impression that the timer information came from the EPG which in my opinion had the same paucity of information as the timers.

All of this, again for clarification, was as I was seeing the timers and EPG in the OWIF interface.

So to be really clear I reiterate that my preference is to see (in the OWIF interface) the program descriptions rather than the subtitle information under the title+subtitle in the IceTV generated EPG and timers in the U4.

I don't know if this is feasible, but again in my opinion it is desirable. It is useful to see both title and subtitle in the timers as provided by IceTV, and the description of the program as provided by IceTV without having to navigate the OWIF EPG to click on it to see the program description. Maybe a small thing to some, a major benefit to me.

I don't really understand what differences if any there might be between the implementation of the FTA and IceTV EPGs and timers in the TX/U series of PVRs, all I can do is report on what I see. The FTA, unlike the House of Lords, does it in particular and does it very well. That is sans the subtitle, which is the one thing that I can see that the IceTV does better because the FTA doesn't do it at all.

[MrQuade]

raymondjpg's question isn't about the EPG, it's about the description inserted into timers from the EPG.

Apologies. I just assumed that the IceTV timers were populated using the same information fields as any other timer, hence the assumption about which fields were carrying what information in the EPG.

[raymondjpg]

raymondjpg's question isn't about the EPG, it's about the description inserted into timers from the EPG.

Apologies. I just assumed that the IceTV timers were populated using the same information fields as any other timer, hence the assumption about which fields were carrying what information in the EPG.

I think I just clarified that. My original request regarding description into timers did, eventually, extend to the EPG itself. In the OWIF interface.

[prl]

...
Just for clarification my original request was about the description inserted into timers from the EPG. It then extended to the descriptions inserted into the EPG itself, as I was under the impression that the timer information came from the EPG which in my opinion had the same paucity of information as the timers.

All of this, again for clarification, was as I was seeing the timers and EPG in the OWIF interface.

The timer description information does come from the EPG and I explained in some detail both how it is derived and how it might be changed to meet your request, and also one of the side-effects of making that change.

It doesn't matter how you view the timers, they have the description that's in the timer.

So to be really clear I reiterate that my preference is to see (in the OWIF interface) the program descriptions rather than the subtitle information under the title+subtitle in the IceTV generated EPG and timers in the U4.

The OWIF EPG does contain the full text of the extended event descriptor for IceTV. All you need to do is click on the event and you see it in a popup. The combination of IceTV and OWIF is doing just what I think it should.

I don't know if this is feasible, but again in my opinion it is desirable. It is useful to see both title and subtitle in the timers as provided by IceTV, and the description of the program as provided by IceTV without having to navigate the OWIF EPG to click on it to see the program description. Maybe a small thing to some, a major benefit to me.

I described how it might be done, at least for the timers.

I don't really understand what differences if any there might be between the implementation of the FTA and IceTV EPGs and timers in the TX/U series of PVRs, ...

I thought I'd explained that in some (perhaps even tedious) detail.

The key issue is that there is a difference in semantics of the short and long event descriptors between IceTV and FTA. In IceTV, it's pretty clear. For FTA, it seems to be "make it up as you go". Whatever changes that are made should ensure that the current behaviour on the T/U series for both can be preserved.

There is a theoretical possibility that the display of a timer might draw on information from the EPG by using the timer's eventid, but currently that won't work for repeated timers after their first firing.

[prl]

raymondjpg's question isn't about the EPG, it's about the description inserted into timers from the EPG.

Apologies. I just assumed that the IceTV timers were populated using the same information fields as any other timer, hence the assumption about which fields were carrying what information in the EPG.

The timer description is derived from the EPG in exactly the same way for both IceTV timers and ones using the FTA EPG. What differs is what's in the two description fields in the two EPGs.

[MrQuade]

raymondjpg's question isn't about the EPG, it's about the description inserted into timers from the EPG.

Apologies. I just assumed that the IceTV timers were populated using the same information fields as any other timer, hence the assumption about which fields were carrying what information in the EPG.

The timer description is derived from the EPG in exactly the same way for both IceTV timers and ones using the FTA EPG. What differs is what's in the two description fields in the two EPGs.

Ahh ok. So going back to your original quote above, it *is* about what fields are populated by what data in the EPG then?

[raymondjpg]

It doesn't matter how you view the timers, they have the description that's in the timer.

Fair enough, but I am more concerned about what I see in the OWIF.

I don't know if this is feasible, but again in my opinion it is desirable. It is useful to see both title and subtitle in the timers as provided by IceTV, and the description of the program as provided by IceTV without having to navigate the OWIF EPG to click on it to see the program description. Maybe a small thing to some, a major benefit to me.

I described how it might be done, at least for the timers.

Yes. I saw that, and the caveats.

I don't really understand what differences if any there might be between the implementation of the FTA and IceTV EPGs and timers in the TX/U series of PVRs, ...

I thought I'd explained that in some (perhaps even tedious) detail.

I'd say that you did, but much of it is still Greek to me.

The key issue is that there is a difference in semantics of the short and long event descriptors between IceTV and FTA. In IceTV, it's pretty clear. For FTA, it seems to be "make it up as you go". Whatever changes that are made should ensure that the current behaviour on the T/U series for both can be preserved.

There is a theoretical possibility that the display of a timer might draw on information from the EPG by using the timer's eventid, but currently that won't work for repeated timers after their first firing.

If you are saying it cannot be done, then so be it. If you are saying it can be done but you would not be doing it because of perceived difficulties, then so be it. I certainly would not want to be compromising the functionality of IceTV in any way.

[prl]

I've never said that it can't be done. The questions I'm interested in is whether it should be done and,if so, how.

[prl]

raymondjpg's question isn't about the EPG, it's about the description inserted into timers from the EPG.

Apologies. I just assumed that the IceTV timers were populated using the same information fields as any other timer, hence the assumption about which fields were carrying what information in the EPG.

The timer description is derived from the EPG in exactly the same way for both IceTV timers and ones using the FTA EPG. What differs is what's in the two description fields in the two EPGs.

Ahh ok. So going back to your original quote above, it *is* about what fields are populated by what data in the EPG then?

For the OWIF, perhaps yes.

But I don't think that there's anything wrong with the way that the fields are filled.

For timers, there's a question about which field(s) should go in the timer description.

[raymondjpg]

But I don't think that there's anything wrong with the way that the fields are filled.

If what you are saying refers to the material that the fields are filled with, then It appears that we have a profound difference of opinion on this. I hope that is not taken as any mark of disrespect on my part.

For timers, there's a question about which field(s) should go in the timer description.

No question in my mind that it should be the (or a) description rather than the subtitle, but as I said before I would not want anything to compromise the integrity or functioning of IceTV in any way.

[prl]

But I don't think that there's anything wrong with the way that the fields are filled.

If what you are saying refers to the material that the fields are filled with, then It appears that we have a profound difference of opinion on this. I hope that is not taken as any mark of disrespect on my part.

If you're referring to the fields in the EPG, and that the IceTV "subtitle" field should go in the EPG extended event description and that the IceTV "desc" field should go in the short event description, I doubt that you're likely to advance a rationale that would convince me.

For timers, there's a question about which field(s) should go in the timer description.

No question in my mind that it should be the (or a) description rather than the subtitle, but as I said before I would not want anything to compromise the integrity or functioning of IceTV in any way.

How many times do I need to say that I'm open to discussion of whether this is a good idea as an option, and just how it should be implemented?

Your preferred choice for the timer description is not one that has been raised often before in the forum (in one topic, IIRC, but I haven't searched), but there hasn't really been any strong voice for it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented, but it may mean that it's not as important to other users as it seems to be to you.

Whatever is chosen should allow IceTV to interact with the user and the timers in the same way as it does now (which is one reason why it needs to be an option). That is one of the problems with adoxa's patch - it would stop the Series2Folder plugin from working as intended, and would also defeat the purpose of the "By name, then by date" sort option in the media selection screen (which serves to group episodes of a series together in time order under an overall alphabetical ordering). That shows that the side-effects of proposed changes need to be looked at carefully, otherwise "the integrity or functioning of IceTV," or rather its interaction with the rest of the system, could indeed be affected.

[peteru]

whether it should be done

I think not. All I see is one person saying that it doesn't work they way they would like. This is not some kind of an often requested feature that has been bugging a large number of users for years. I do not believe in complicating the code base or user interface for the sake of features that do not have broad appeal.

Think of it this way: This feature request could be better* addressed at the IceTV server end by allowing the user to arbitrarily configure how the various EPG fields are constructed. What do you think is the likelihood that IceTV would go and implement this? In theory it should be higher, since IceTV are being paid by the customer to deliver value to them.

______________________
* better because it would allow for consistency among multiple devices used by the subscriber.

[raymondjpg]

If you're referring to the fields in the EPG, and that the IceTV "subtitle" field should go in the EPG extended event description and that the IceTV "desc" field should go in the short event description, I doubt that you're likely to advance a rationale that would convince me.

Then I withdraw from this discussion.

How many times do I need to say that I'm open to discussion of whether this is a good idea as an option, and just how it should be implemented?

I'll leave it at that.

[prl]

The broadcasters seem to have cleaned up their acts a little since I last looked in any detail at the makeup of their FTA EPG data.

A few events carry no EPG short or extended event description data: 3% of SBS events, 1.3% of SCA (carries Nine affilliates) events and 12% of PRIME (Seven affiliates) events. ABC and WIN (carries Ten affiliates) all have either a short or a long descriptor (or both).

Where event descriptions are sent, ABC, SBS and PRIME only send data in the short event descriptions.

WIN and SCA are more adventurous.

WIN sends only the short description for 16% of programs, only the long description for 2% of programs and it sends data in both for 83% (because of rounding, they don't sum to 100%). Where WIN sends both, the extended description is always " . ".

SCA sends only the short description for 92% of programs, only the long description for 0.4% of programs and it sends data in both for 6% (don't sum to 100% because of rounding and because some SCA programs don't have any description data). Where SCA sends both short and extended description data, the extended description contains cast information. E.g, for the movie Beachhead, it's "(Tony Curtis) Starring Tony Curtis, Mary Murphy, Frank Lovejoy, Tony Curtis, Mary Murphy, Frank Lovejoy, Eduard Franz".

[adoxa]

I'm happy to provide you with a customised version (but bear in mind I use neither IceTV nor OWIF). As prl mentions, if you want to sort by name the previous patch won't quite work. I think the best I could do (without having to modify the timers themselves) is to incorporate the subtitle into the description (if short and extended: extended = short + "\n" + extended; short = "").