T2 Generating IceTV Timer Conflicts

[vader1111]

My T2 is configured to use IceTV for almost all of its timers. On Wednesday nights it's supposed to record:
8:00 Hard Quiz (ABC)
8:30 Tutankhamen (SBS)
9:00 Rosehaven (ABC)
9:30 Madam Secretary (Win)

For some reason, the T2 is refusing to accept the timer for Tutankhamen. The email I'm getting from IceTV says that it's because of a timer conflict.

Allowing for pre- and post- padding, it should be recording 3 separate networks between 9:25 and 9:50. The T2 has 3 tuners (including the USB plug), and should be able to cope with this situation.

So why is the T2 reporting timer conflicts, and refusing to accept the IceTV reservation? Any suggestions as to what might be causing this problem - and what I can do to fix it?

Note that it's also set to record 3x shows (simultaneously), on 3x separate networks, on Monday nights, and is happily doing so without complaint.

[prl]

The detection of timer conflicts is independent of where the timers originate from.

Do you see all three tuners in MENU>Information>Devices?

I'll try setting up those recordings on my test T2.

[vader1111]

I'm not at home now, so I can't check.

What I do know is that I had a similar problem last night, which resulted in Rosehaven not being recorded.

The IceTV Notification of Failed Timer states that the message from recorder is as follows:
Timer conflict: Tutankhamun, Hard Quiz, Rosehaven, Madam Secretary

I'm not sure why Hard Quiz would be a part of the problem. It's on the same network as Rosehaven (both ABC), and the Hard Quiz recording shouldn't overlap with Rosehaven's recording anyway.

[vader1111]

I will definitely check the situation with the tuners when I get home.

The more I think about this, the stranger it seems. It did initally accept all of the timers, but then it decided to start throwing IceTV timer conflict messages yesterday afternoon. It happily recorded 3 simultaneous shows, on 3 separate networks, on Monday night.

It's currently scheduled to record the same 3 shows next Monday - but the overlap is only caused by pre- and post- padding. If it dropped the padding then it could do the recording with only 2x tuners.

[MrQuade]

I'm not sure why Hard Quiz would be a part of the problem. It's on the same network as Rosehaven (both ABC), and the Hard Quiz recording shouldn't overlap with Rosehaven's recording anyway.

Are you in a location where you receive ABC broadcasts on more than one frequency. If you were recording one ABC show from one frequency, and the other from the other frequency, then you would have a tuner conflict.

[prl]

I set up the four recordings on IceTV on my test T2 with an added USB tuner, with the default IceTV padding 2 min pre- and 20 min post-padding.

That gave three simultaneous recordings on:
SBS 20:20-21:45
ABC 20:58-21:50
WIN 21:28-23:00

The three-tuner overlap was 21:28-21:45. All four timers were set on the T2. No error was flagged on the IceTV Web site and there was no error email.

If you post your padding settings, I can re-try with those settings.

[vader1111]

Pre-padding is 5 minutes.
Post-padding is 25 minutes.

[prl]

And do you see three tuners in MENU>Information>Devices?

[vader1111]

I'm not sure why Hard Quiz would be a part of the problem. It's on the same network as Rosehaven (both ABC), and the Hard Quiz recording shouldn't overlap with Rosehaven's recording anyway.

Are you in a location where you receive ABC broadcasts on more than one frequency. If you were recording one ABC show from one frequency, and the other from the other frequency, then you would have a tuner conflict.

I don't think so. I've never had a problem with it before last night, and I record ABC shows regularly.

[vader1111]

And do you see three tuners in MENU>Information>Devices?

Will check when I get home. This is the most obvious thing to look for.

Not sure what I do if one of the tuners is missing...

[prl]

... The more I think about this, the stranger it seems. It did initally accept all of the timers, but then it decided to start throwing IceTV timer conflict messages yesterday afternoon. ...

That's not as strange as it may seem. The IceTV server doesn't detect conflicts itself. It just sends the timers and reports any errors that the PVR sends it. That will only be done the next time the PVR contacts IceTV for an update.

[prl]

Pre-padding is 5 minutes.
Post-padding is 25 minutes.

I tried it again with those settings. Still no conflicts.

[prl]

I'm not sure why Hard Quiz would be a part of the problem. It's on the same network as Rosehaven (both ABC), and the Hard Quiz recording shouldn't overlap with Rosehaven's recording anyway.

Are you in a location where you receive ABC broadcasts on more than one frequency. If you were recording one ABC show from one frequency, and the other from the other frequency, then you would have a tuner conflict.

Unless the scan information on the PVR changes, IceTV sending the same set of triples for a recording, in the same order, should always result in the same service being selected.

[vader1111]

... The more I think about this, the stranger it seems. It did initally accept all of the timers, but then it decided to start throwing IceTV timer conflict messages yesterday afternoon. ...

That's not as strange as it may seem. The IceTV server doesn't detect conflicts itself. It just sends the timers and reports any errors that the PVR sends it. That will only be done the next time the PVR contacts IceTV for an update.

The PVR is set to check for updates every 15 minutes.

I appreciate that IceTV is only reporting the message sent back by the T2. That's why I posted this question here, and not on the IceTV forum.

I'm trying to work out why my T2 has suddenly decided that it doesn't want to record on all 3 tuners, at the same time. It did it on Monday, it was happy until 4pm yesterday, then it decided not to play ball.

Why would a T2 drop a tuner at random (assuming that's the cause of the problem)? The T2 lives almost permanently in standby mode (not deep standby). The only time I ever turn it "on" is when I'm watching live sport. Most of the time I copy the files off it, edit out the ads, and watch the edited versions on my media player. I haven't physically touched the T2 in months, and the last time it was in "on" mode was Sunday. There is no reason at all why the T2's behaviour should have changed from Monday to Wednesday.

[vader1111]

Pre-padding is 5 minutes.
Post-padding is 25 minutes.

I tried it again with those settings. Still no conflicts.

Sounding more & more like the machine has dropped a tuner. Any idea why this would happen?

** To be confirmed when I get home.

[vader1111]

I'm not sure why Hard Quiz would be a part of the problem. It's on the same network as Rosehaven (both ABC), and the Hard Quiz recording shouldn't overlap with Rosehaven's recording anyway.

Are you in a location where you receive ABC broadcasts on more than one frequency. If you were recording one ABC show from one frequency, and the other from the other frequency, then you would have a tuner conflict.

Unless the scan information on the PVR changes, IceTV sending the same set of triples for a recording, in the same order, should always result in the same service being selected.

Nothing has changed, either in the IceTV triples, or the scan information on the PVR. The last time I changed either of these was when Win & Southern Cross did the big channel swap earlier this year.

[prl]

Pre-padding is 5 minutes.
Post-padding is 25 minutes.

I tried it again with those settings. Still no conflicts.

Sounding more & more like the machine has dropped a tuner. Any idea why this would happen?

** To be confirmed when I get home.

Let's wait until it's confirmed that it has dropped a tuner.

[vader1111]

And do you see three tuners in MENU>Information>Devices?

Doesn't appear to have dropped any tuners.

I can see 3x tuners:
Tuner A - DVB-T/T2 NIM (DVB-T2)
Tuner B - DVB-T NIM (DVB-T)
Tuner C - DVB-T TV Stick (DVB-T)

So that's the obvious problem disproven. Any further suggestions?

[vader1111]

I've just tried adding the timer manually, from the T2's Ep Guide. I'm now looking at a screen titled "Timer Sanity Error".

Tutankhamun is listed in the "New Timer" column.
Hard Quiz, Rosehaven, and Madam Secretary are listed in the "Conflicting timers" column.

[prl]

That's odd, because it really makes it look like either the two ABC programs are on different frequencies or it's only able to use two tuners.

[vader1111]

That's odd, because it really makes it look like either the two ABC programs are on different frequencies or it's only able to use two tuners.

That's the way it looks from here. They're not even on different services (i.e. ABC & ABC2) - they're both on the same channel.

[vader1111]

I've just tried changing the post-padding to 24 minutes. This means that the ABC shows shouldn't interfere with each other - the first recording should end at 8:54, the second should start at 8:55. The Tutankhamen reservation still won't go through.

[peteru]

Reboot.

[vader1111]

Reboot.

Done.

The T2 has now accepted the timer, but I still got an email from IceTV saying that the timer has failed.

It will be interesting to see what happens next Wednesday.

[vader1111]

Same problem is back again this week.

Last time I got it to accept the timer by modifying one of the ABC recordings, so that the two ABC recordings weren't perfectly aligned back-to-back (i.e. one finishing at 8:55, the other starting at 8:55). The workaround works, but I shouldn't have to do it that way - the T2 should just accept the timer as-is.

[MrQuade]

Perhaps try posting a copy of your channel info using prl's instructions here.

That should be able to determine if you have some funny service shenanigans going on.

[vader1111]

Perhaps try posting a copy of your channel info using prl's instructions here.

That should be able to determine if you have some funny service shenanigans going on.

Will do (when I get home). Not sure how there could be any "funny service shenanigans" going on. I could understand it if the ABC shows were on separate services (e.g. ABC & ABC2), and those services happened to be on different transmitters. But they're not - they're on the same service (both on the ABC's main channel).

[MrQuade]

I could understand it if the ABC shows were on separate services (e.g. ABC & ABC2), and those services happened to be on different transmitters. But they're not - they're on the same service (both on the ABC's main channel).

They could also be on the same service on different transmitters and cause these problems. Though how/why the PVR and Ice would use both is something I am not sure about.

[prl]

The IceTV server has been a bit odd in the last couple of days, and has sometimes been sending the wrong times for some timers. That can lead to unexpected conflicts.

Can you copy/paste the email error message for the failed timer and your padding settings? DO the show names in the error message correspond with what you wanted to record?

Does the T2 have a USB tuner as well as the built-in tuners?

[MrQuade]

Does the T2 have a USB tuner as well as the built-in tuners?

I think he answered this one. Hopefully it hasn't dropped a tuner in the meantime.

Doesn't appear to have dropped any tuners.

I can see 3x tuners:
Tuner A - DVB-T/T2 NIM (DVB-T2)
Tuner B - DVB-T NIM (DVB-T)
Tuner C - DVB-T TV Stick (DVB-T)

[Grumpy_Geoff]

Perhaps try posting a copy of your channel info using prl's instructions here.

That should be able to determine if you have some funny service shenanigans going on.

To rule out those 'shenanigans', I think file lamedb might be better, as it shows the transponder/broadcaster frequencies as well as services
From a browser - file://beyonwizt2/Root/etc/enigma2/lamedb
Windows explorer - \\beyonwizt2\Root\etc\enigma2\lamedb

I also wonder if another full reboot might get an AWOL USB tuner back in play, if indeed it is the tuner.

[vader1111]

Here is the email I received from IceTV:

Dear Michael,
IceTV has received a notification from your video recorder that it was unable to schedule one of your shows due to an error. A link to your upcoming shows page and the details of the error are provided below for your convenience.
Regards,
The IceTV team.
________________________________________
Manage this recording
Show Name: Tutankhamun
Channel: SBS
Time: 2016-11-16 20:40:00
Duration: 50
Device Label: Beyonwiz T2
Device Type: Beyonwiz T3
Message from recorder: Timer conflict: Tutankhamun, Hard Quiz, Rosehaven, Madam Secretary, The Blacklist
Last Updated: 2016-11-10 12:57:33
________________________________________
Manage this recording
Show Name: Tutankhamun
Channel: SBS
Time: 2016-11-16 20:40:00
Duration: 50
Device Label: Beyonwiz T2
Device Type: Beyonwiz T3
Message from recorder: Timer conflict: Tutankhamun, Hard Quiz, Rosehaven, Madam Secretary, The Blacklist
Last Updated: 2016-11-10 12:57:33

If I had a guess, I would say that it's having problems with two recording pairs:
Hard Quiz (recording scheduled to finish at 20:55) and Rosehaven (scheduled to start at 20:55)
Rosehaven (scheduled to finish at 21:55) and The Blacklist (scheduled to start at 21:55)

[vader1111]

I've put both the lamedb and the channel info into the attached "Compressed (zipped) folder".

Any help you can provide will be gratefully accepted.

[prl]

Padding settings?

[vader1111]

Padding settings?

pre-padding = 5 min
post-padding = 25 min

[Grumpy_Geoff]

I've put both the lamedb and the channel info into the attached "Compressed (zipped) folder".

From your lamedb file:
You're in Canberra
The file appears to have ABC only using ONID 1010/TSID 0211 on 191.5 MHz
I'm guessing that's the same as prl - Black Mountain

ABC (LCN 2) will be on SID 0211 (the simulcasted LCN 21 will be on SID 0213).
IceTV should be sending timers for SID 0211


Cheers
Geoff

[vader1111]

You are correct - I am indeed in Canberra, receiving my signals from Black Mountain.

According to my IceTV account, ABC (and all of my channels/services) have the "Send to TV Recorder LCN" set to "All". The other options in the dropdown are "Disabled", "2", and "21".

[vader1111]

I've fudged it again, by modifying the timers for the two ABC programs, reducing their post-padding by a minute. This allows the Tutankhamen timer to be accepted by the T2.

There seems to be a problem under the following conditions..
[*]All 3 tuners in use.
[*]The existence of a "nexus point", where 2 timers have back-to-back finish/start times. i.e. one timer is set to start at the exact same time as another timer is set to finish.

It doesn't matter if the back-to-back timers are on the same channel or network.

Originally I had one clash, with the two ABC timers going back-to-back. This week I have two clashes - ABC to ABC, and ABC to Prime7. Both prevented the other timer (SBS/Tutankhamen) from being accepted by the T2, until I eliminated the nexus point.

[vader1111]

I'm wondering if the order in which the timers are received is important?

For some reason the SBS programs (for next Wednesday) weren't uploaded to the IceTV database until this afternoon. By that time all of the other timers (ABC, Win & Prime) had already gone through to the T2. The SBS timer was the last to go through, several hours after the others.

This ordering may be important if/when attempting to replicate my problem.

[prl]

The ordering is important in determining which show triggers the timer conflict and fails to get its timer set. However, it shouldn't affect whether there is a conflict.

It's incorrect to assume that in the Canberra area IceTV only sends timers for Canberra area ONID:SID:TSID triples. I know that it also sends triples for the Illawarra. However, that's probably not important in this case unless vader1111's T2 also scans Illawarra channels successfully.

[vader1111]

The ordering is important in determining which show triggers the timer conflict and fails to get its timer set. However, it shouldn't affect whether there is a conflict.

It's incorrect to assume that in the Canberra area IceTV only sends timers for Canberra area ONID:SID:TSID triples. I know that it also sends triples for the Illawarra. However, that's probably not important in this case unless vader1111's T2 also scans Illawarra channels successfully.

No. I only get one set of channels when I do a scan. Some areas get two - from Black Mountain and Mt Tuggeranong, but I'm in the northern suburbs and don't receive the Mt Tuggeranong broadcasts.

[prl]

I think this summarises the problem:

• Back-to-back timers are treated as overlapping.
• Overlapping (including back-to-back) timers on the same broadcast channel (i.e. same network on the same frequency) to not use an additional tuner.
• Although Hard Chat is included in the list of overlapping timers, its presence is not relevant to whether there is a timer conflict or not. If it is removed, there is still a conflict between the remaining 4 timers (Rosehaven, Madam Secretary, The Blacklist and Tutankhamun).
• All that is needed to resolve the conflict is to reduce the post-padding of Rosehaven by one minute. It could also be resolved by reducing the post-padding of Tutankhamun by 1 minute or reducing the pre-padding of The Blacklist by 1 minute.
• There is no need to adjust the start time of the Rosehaven timer or the end of the Hard Quiz timer to resolve the conflict.

The timing adjustments can only be done on an individual basis if the timers aren't set by IceTV. To resolve the problem within IceTV, either the pre- or post-padding needs to be reduced by 1 minute. It may help avoid similar IceTV problems more generally if the total amount of padding was set to 29 minutes, but of course that won't resolve all possible similar conflicts where "back-to-back" timers are involved.

I think that the reason that abutting timers are considered as overlapping is because of the prepare time of a recording, which starts 20 seconds before the actual recording start time. Amongst other things, the "prepare" time is when a tuner gets allocated to a recording, so as far as tuner allocation goes, "back-to-back" is "overlapping".

You can actually see the prepare time flagged in the timer list if you look at the right time.

[Gully]

The timing adjustments can only be done on an individual basis if the timers aren't set by IceTV. To resolve the problem within IceTV, either the pre- or post-padding needs to be reduced by 1 minute. It may help avoid similar IceTV problems more generally if the total amount of padding was set to 29 minutes, but of course that won't resolve all possible similar conflicts where "back-to-back" timers are involved.

It might come pretty close as it will be less likely to coincide with a program start and finish times as most would be in multiples of 5 in IceTV (FreeTV EPG would also be until they start sending through the final time tweaks they do some times)

[vader1111]

I think this summarises the problem:

• Back-to-back timers are treated as overlapping.
• Overlapping (including back-to-back) timers on the same broadcast channel (i.e. same network on the same frequency) to not use an additional tuner.
• Although Hard Chat is included in the list of overlapping timers, its presence is not relevant to whether there is a timer conflict or not. If it is removed, there is still a conflict between the remaining 4 timers (Rosehaven, Madam Secretary, The Blacklist and Tutankhamun).
• All that is needed to resolve the conflict is to reduce the post-padding of Rosehaven by one minute. It could also be resolved by reducing the post-padding of Tutankhamun by 1 minute or reducing the pre-padding of The Blacklist by 1 minute.
• There is no need to adjust the start time of the Rosehaven timer or the end of the Hard Quiz timer to resolve the conflict.

The timing adjustments can only be done on an individual basis if the timers aren't set by IceTV. To resolve the problem within IceTV, either the pre- or post-padding needs to be reduced by 1 minute. It may help avoid similar IceTV problems more generally if the total amount of padding was set to 29 minutes, but of course that won't resolve all possible similar conflicts where "back-to-back" timers are involved.

I think that the reason that abutting timers are considered as overlapping is because of the prepare time of a recording, which starts 20 seconds before the actual recording start time. Amongst other things, the "prepare" time is when a tuner gets allocated to a recording, so as far as tuner allocation goes, "back-to-back" is "overlapping".

You can actually see the prepare time flagged in the timer list if you look at the right time.

Most of this makes sense.. except that having the Hard Quiz & Rosehaven timers (both ABC - same network, same service) does actually result in a conflict.

I've already figured out that setting the overall padding to 29 minutes (by reducing the post-padding to 24) resolves this issue. I would have expected the T2 to be smart enough that I shouldn't have to do this, but if that's what it takes to prevent it from happening again - then so be it.

[prl]

...
Most of this makes sense.. except that having the Hard Quiz & Rosehaven timers (both ABC - same network, same service) does actually result in a conflict. ...

You're going to need to be more specific. If I remove Hard Quiz from the timers entirely, the other timers still generate a conflict. If Hard Quiz is in, it doesn't prevent all the timers being set provided the 21:55 "nexus" is cleared by adjusting one of the timers that start of end at 21:55.

As I said, that second test can't be done in that level of detail if the timers are set by IceTV.

[vader1111]

...
Most of this makes sense.. except that having the Hard Quiz & Rosehaven timers (both ABC - same network, same service) does actually result in a conflict. ...

You're going to need to be more specific. If I remove Hard Quiz from the timers entirely, the other timers still generate a conflict. If Hard Quiz is in, it doesn't prevent all the timers being set provided the 21:55 "nexus" is cleared by adjusting one of the timers that start of end at 21:55.

As I said, that second test can't be done in that level of detail if the timers are set by IceTV.

When I had this problem the first time, I had timers set to record the following programs (times include padding):
1955-2055 Hard Quiz (ABC)
2055-2155 Rosehaven (ABC)
2025-2155 Tutankhamen
2125-2255 Madam Secretary
2225-2355 Blindspot

The only "nexus" present was between the two ABC programs. The T2 rejected the Tutankhamen until I modified the post-padding on Hard Quiz, eliminating the "nexus".

I can understand there being problems with a "nexus" between recordings on different networks, due to the 20 second setup time required. That makes perfect sense. That said, it's still a disappointing outcome (and poor design by Beyonwiz), but it's understandable.

If my old Topfield had received this timer it wouldn't have had an issue. In the event of scheduled conflicts which are only due to padding, it trims the pre-padding first, then the post-padding. I'm not sure why the T2 isn't smart enough to do this. The Toppy wouldn't have had any problems at all with handling the nexus situation - mind you, it also wouldn't have been able to record Rosehaven, Tutankhamen, and Madam Secretary, all simultaneously.

What I don't understand is why a nexus between two programs on the same channel/network/service should cause this problem?

** It is possible to determine the order in which timers are sent by IceTV, though it's a bit time consuming. You add them sequentially in IceTV, and wait for them to appear on the T2 before adding the next timer in IceTV.

[MrQuade]

** It is possible to determine the order in which timers are sent by IceTV, though it's a bit time consuming. You add them sequentially in IceTV, and wait for them to appear on the T2 before adding the next timer in IceTV.

You can manually refresh IceTV to save the 15 minute delay between automatic updates.

[IanSav]

Hi,

I don't use IceTV but if the FTA experience offers any comparison then I offer the following comment.

While the Beyonwiz shows timer granularity to the nearest minute the actual recording times used have a resolution down to the second. When setting FTA timers there should be a minute between the end of one timer and the start of the next to properly ensure that those timers are not overlapping. When the overlapping events use a single tuner this issue is trivial. If multiple tuners are involved the situation can cause recording conflicts. Keeping the timers one minute apart allows for the unseen seconds data to be taken into account.

I believe that IceTV timers have a five minute granularity but I don't know if seconds are significant. If so, then the above scenario may also apply to IceTV.

Regards,
Ian.

[MrQuade]

I believe that IceTV timers have a five minute granularity but I don't know if seconds are significant. If so, then the above scenario may also apply to IceTV.

Conflict resolution is done by the PVR, and PVR timer logic, so the Ice TV guide resolution should not be a factor.