IceTV versus Free-To-Air EPG

[amjohnston]

I have been a happy Wiz owner and operator for nearly 10 years now having lived through the S1 and P2 years of great service and I have benefited from the devotion and expertise of so many who have contributed to this forum since 2007.

Having recently decided to get up-to-date and purchased a T4, I have returned to the forum to seek advice and guidance on its setup and use. Low and behold, the same magnificent troupe is still there giving their time and knowledge and experience for free to all of us; I mean the likes of PRL, Gully, PeterU, IanSav and so many others including the DealSpace staff. So my first comment is to thank you all for your amazing commitment and generosity. The guides and videos that are available online are magic!

My current question to you is “What are the Pros & Cons of IceTV versus Free-toAir EPGs?”

I have been an IceTv user since my first purchase of the S1 in 2007. When I set up IceTv on my T4, I discovered that all channels for which I had previously had appropriate EPG information were correctly included in my EPG except the ABC channels. I contacted IceTV support to seek advice and pointed out that the preferred frequency of the ABC group of channels scanned by the P2 and T4 devices were different. “Dave from IceTv” responded promptly advising that the frequency difference was the key issue and requested that I download key service information files from the internet and send them to him. I provided the information requested but have, despite reminders, had no response in the 5 days since then. So I have had to resort to the Free-to-Air EPG to record programmes.

My first impression of the suitability of the Free-to-Air EPG plus EPGRefresh Plugin is that they are pretty good and that there is a need to question the need for the IceTV Application. So I would really appreciate a high-level discussion of the pros and cons of IceTv versus Free-To_air EPG.

Arthur

[IanSav]

Hi Arthur,

Welcome back.

I am a FTA EPG user and apart from a few broadcaster issues have been very happy with it.

The broadcaster issues relate to problems with some channels keeping their EPG data present or accurate. Given that C31 is going off the air soon their problems could possibly be excused. I have a contact in Seven Melbourne so I tend to contact him when their systems go awry. I also try to inform the other broadcasters if there are problems with their data. Generally the data quality is quite good.

If the Beyonwiz developers can pull together and implement the broadcast CRID data into the AutoTimers then we could have a free and significantly better EPG / recording system. Until then only you can decide what system works best for you.

Regards,
Ian.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

My thoughts were previously posted here - more timer-specific than guide-specifc though

What issue(s) with IceTV usage on the T4 are you having? No ABC guide data at all?
In IceTV / My Account / Guide Settings, for the ABC services, what values have you set for 'SEND TO TV RECORDER AS LCN'; "All" or specific LCNs (although I think that matters only for ABC[1])?
Do you have the region set correctly?

Services are identified by the ONID:TSID:SID triples; LCNs are not used in the T series <-> IceTV.interface.

The IceTV triples are the 3rd, 4th and 5th number segments in the serviceref (SID, TSID, ONID).

Service Information Register - QLD: http://www.freetv.com.au/media/Engineer ... 16_QLD.pdf

[prl]

Arthur, it's possible that the problem is due to you getting signals from two ABC transmitters that are in different IceTV regions. If that's the case, the triples for the ABC channels your T4 has scanned may be for the out-of-region transmitter. That may have been the "frequency" issue that Dave was referring to.

To resolve that you'll probably need to do a manual scan on the T4, frequency by frequency, to make sure you get a consistent set of triples to match IceTV.

[amjohnston]

Thanks for your responses. Here is the message I sent to IceTV:

Have just installed a BeyonwizT4 in addition to a P2 and have used my existing IceTV account to install the EPG on the T4. All channels appear OK except the ABC channels. The EPG on the P2 continues to update ABC channels so it can't be because there is a temporary problem with ABC information. Any suggestions? I noted the ABC frequency on both devices and they are different; 606.5Mhz on P2 and 676.5Mhz on the T4. I live at Palmwoods on the Sunshine Coast.

Part of Dave's response was:

The different ABC frequencies is the problem. The P2 only uses the channel numbers to match the guide to a channel. The T4 uses a set of 3 id numbers to match each channel to its correct guide. The same ABC channels from 2 different transmitters have different sets of id numbers.

From where are located you have 3 transmitters within range (though only the first two provide a good signal).

Nambour - north of you
Sunshine Coast North - south of you
Sunshine Coast South - south of you (variable signal from your location)
Both the Sunshine Coast North and Sunshine Coast North South transmitters are at Bald Knob - with one pointing north and the other pointing south.

By the ABC frequencies you provided your T4 has correctly scanned in ABC from the north pointing transmitter and your P2 has scanned in ABC from the weaker south pointing transmitter.

ABC from the Sunshine Coast North transmitter is broadcast on 676.5 MHz
ABC from the weaker Sunshine Coast South transmitter is broadcast on 606.5 MHz
.
We need the ABC channels' id numbers off your T4 so we can add them to our Sunshine Coast region's settings.

He provided a couple of URLs for me to use to obtain "userbouquet" and "getservices" files and asked me to send them to him. I did this but no response so far.

Clearly I could delete the ABC channels and manually tune in to the 606.5 Mhz broadcast but this seems to be a backward step since it is the weaker signal. Also the same problem would reappear if I re-scan at any time in the future. That's why I decided to have a go with the FTA EPG.

It also seems odd that this is the first time that this problem has occurred in my region. Perhaps I am the first to install a T series Beyonwiz on the northern half of the Sunshine Coast but that seems unlikely.

[gibster]

My thoughts were previously posted here - more timer-specific than guide-specifc though

Services are identified by the ONID:TSID:SID triples; LCNs are not used in the T series <-> IceTV.interface.

So what would be the correct way to set LCN in "Guide Settings" on the IceTV website for a T4?

All or Disabled?

Thanks

gib

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...
It also seems odd that this is the first time that this problem has occurred in my region. Perhaps I am the first to install a T series Beyonwiz on the northern half of the Sunshine Coast but that seems unlikely.

The only other Sunshine Coast poster I can recall is "mac37". I had a peek at mac37's scan data posted in thread "Request for updates for channel picons" and it looks like the ABC services mac37 gets are from Sunshine Coast not Brisbane -
e.g. ABC on ONID 1010, TSID 0243
ABC(1) SID 02C1 (serviceref 1:0:1:2C1:243:1010)
ABC News 24 SID 02C0 (serviceref 1:0:1:2C0:243:1010)
which to me appears to be ABC Sunshine Coast

Brisbane data would be ONID 1010, TSID 0241
ABC(1) SID 0241
ABC News 24 SID 0240
Different TSID and SIDs.

Are you getting the Brisbane transmission from that Sunshine Coast North transmitter?
What happens if you set your Ice region to Brisbane?

[Grumpy_Geoff]

So what would be the correct way to set LCN in "Guide Settings" on the IceTV website for a T4?

All or Disabled?

The IceTV Guide Settings state "Disabled channels won't be sent to PVRs" - I don't have any set to disabled. and as I'm in Perth and don't get multiple broadcasts of the same service I can't see why I'd need to.

It is possible to hide channels from the online guide or mobile app, but timers may still be scheduled for those hidden channels and therefore to avoid confusion should probably also be set to disabled.

Having said the above, I'm not so sure that 'disabling' actually has any affect for a T-series device, I think it only applies to the DP-series.

[prl]

... Having said the above, I'm not so sure that 'disabling' actually has any affect for a T-series device, I think it only applies to the DP-series.

I just tried it on my test T4: it does have an effect.

In My Account>Guide settings, I set Send to recorder as LCN to Disabled for ABC News 24 (I don't have any recordings on that anywhere) and then ticked Channel on IceTV Web site, because setting the LCN to Disabled had disabled that.

I then set a new recording on ABC News 24 and one on ABC2. After updating IceTV on the T4, I had a timer set for the ABC2 recording, but no timer set for the ABC News 24 recording. The entry for the ABC News 24 recording on the Web page stayed as "Queued". There was no error posted on the Web site or emailed to me.

That all seems to work.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...
I then set a new recording on ABC News 24 and one on ABC2. After updating IceTV on the T4, I had a timer set for the ABC2 recording, but no timer set for the ABC News 24 recording. The entry for the ABC News 24 recording on the Web page stayed as "Queued". There was no error posted on the Web site or emailed to me.

That all seems to work.

Okay, yep. I was thinking of guide data, not timers.
I tried disabling Ten Digital and keeping TEN HD. I disabled/enabled Ice on my T4 but I still got the Ten Digital guide data. I hadn't tried timers.
I tried again after seeing your post and disabled ABC News 24 as well. I disabled/enabled Ice, and buggar me, this time no guide data for Ten Digital nor ABC News 24. I can only guess there was the right amount of delay on the 2nd test

[prl]

...
I tried again after seeing your post and disabled ABC News 24 as well. I disabled/enabled Ice, and buggar me, this time no guide data for Ten Digital nor ABC News 24. I can only guess there was the right amount of delay on the 2nd test

I wonder whether the difference was whether the first time you just refreshed the EPG after changing the server side channel setup, which might not change what's currently in the EPG cache, only what gets updated?

[mac37]

Hi,
A bit late popping into this one - sorry if you're all sorted out (actually I'd be happy) - but -

I am on the Sunshine Coast at Sippy Downs, with a T2.
We are nicely situated, picking up BOTH transmitters from Bald Knob.

SC North (Channels 2, 3, 5, 6, 8 - series). Regional. Good strong signal.
SC South (Re-transmitted Brisbane Channels 2, 3, 7, 9, 10 - series). Not quite as good a signal, but still OK.
Although it was said that this points south, it is more like south east (ish), to cover the southern end of the SC area and also down past Caboulture.

Palmwoods is a bit further north from us, but would, I imagine, pick up a good signal from SC North, but a weaker signal from SC South.
The Frequencies for ABC are 676.500 (Channel 49) for North and 606.500 (Channel 39) for South (Brisbane Channel).

There is also a transmitter at Dulong to service the Nambour area, but I guess you would have to point your antenna towards it.
The ABC frequency for that is 620.500 and I believe it is found on channel 41.

[amjohnston]

No ABC guide data at all?
In IceTV / My Account / Guide Settings, for the ABC services, what values have you set for 'SEND TO TV RECORDER AS LCN'; "All" or specific LCNs
Do you have the region set correctly?

Thanks for your responses, Geoff. The answers to your questions are:

- No ABC data
- "All"
- I have tried both Brisbane and Sunshine Coast but get no ABC data in both cases

Also, I have checked the Service information against the file you provided and all my ABC service data are correct for the Sunshine Coast. So it remains a puzzle.

Regards,
Arthur

[prl]

From what Dave at IceTV emailed you, it looks like he's pretty sure he can fix the problem you have using the information you sent him. It may take a few days for them to test the changes and push them into the IceTV server.

[amjohnston]

Hi,
A bit late popping into this one - sorry if you're all sorted out (actually I'd be happy) - but -

I am on the Sunshine Coast at Sippy Downs, with a T2.
We are nicely situated, picking up BOTH transmitters from Bald Knob.

SC North (Channels 2, 3, 5, 6, 8 - series). Regional. Good strong signal.
SC South (Re-transmitted Brisbane Channels 2, 3, 7, 9, 10 - series). Not quite as good a signal, but still OK.
Although it was said that this points south, it is more like south east (ish), to cover the southern end of the SC area and also down past Caboulture.

Palmwoods is a bit further north from us, but would, I imagine, pick up a good signal from SC North, but a weaker signal from SC South.
The Frequencies for ABC are 676.500 (Channel 49) for North and 606.500 (Channel 39) for South (Brisbane Channel).

There is also a transmitter at Dulong to service the Nambour area, but I guess you would have to point your antenna towards it.
The ABC frequency for that is 620.500 and I believe it is found on channel 41.

Hi
Unfortunately it is not yet sorted. Presumably your T2 is tuned to the stronger signal on 676.5Mhz, the same frequency mine is tuned to. Do you use IceTV and, if so, do you get the ABC channel information OK?

Regards
Arthur

[mac37]

Hi Arthur,

Yes and yes.
I have no problems with IceTV in that regard.

I do have to make sure I manually scan the SC Frequencies, though, both for ABC and SBS, as they can clash with the Brisbane ones.

[amjohnston]

From what Dave at IceTV emailed you, it looks like he's pretty sure he can fix the problem you have using the information you sent him. It may take a few days for them to test the changes and push them into the IceTV server.

I hope you are right, Peter, but Mac's information that he obtains ABC program data on IceTV on the same frequency as me seems to imply that IceTV already has the ABC id data for the Sunshine Coast.

Regards,
Arthur

[mac37]

From what Dave at IceTV emailed you, it looks like he's pretty sure he can fix the problem you have using the information you sent him. It may take a few days for them to test the changes and push them into the IceTV server.

I hope you are right, Peter, but Mac's information that he obtains ABC program data on IceTV on the same frequency as me seems to imply that IceTV already has the ABC id data for the Sunshine Coast.

Regards,
Arthur

Quite right Arthur, Data has been supplied on a few occasions, for all channels, both for Sunshine Coast and the re-transmitted Brisbane ones (in case they are different from the real Brisbane ones). I had a lot of strife with the 62/72 (Seven Two) series, where they (IceTV) would not recognize the triplets for 72. The original reason I wanted 72 AND 62, was before I had the T2, I had (still have) a Topfield and a Humax. They are not clever enough to record 2 programs separately, which follow one another. So I used 72 for one and 62 for the other, to avoid the overlap.
Anyway, just to complete the picture, I always only ever put one LCN against any channel (2 for ABC - 22 for ABC2 etc). Never "ALL".
And have even put local LCN numbers in Brisbane channels, because IceTV has trouble scheduling programs I set for eg channel 6, and schedules them on channel 7. So 7 on mine is set for LCN 60. (By the way it DOES take note of LCNs).

All the best.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...
I tried again after seeing your post and disabled ABC News 24 as well. I disabled/enabled Ice, and buggar me, this time no guide data for Ten Digital nor ABC News 24. I can only guess there was the right amount of delay on the 2nd test

I wonder whether the difference was whether the first time you just refreshed the EPG after changing the server side channel setup, which might not change what's currently in the EPG cache, only what gets updated?

I think you might have something there. I had another go and disabled IceTV on the T4. The EPG cleared completely and didn't refill even after changing services a few times. Now/Next showed I was picking up the FTA EIT (i.e. not on 5-min boundaries). I put the T4 to standby, and brought it back to running state - bingo, bango, bongo, the EPG filled in for NINE (I'd been watching the cricket).
So, for some reason, it needed a kick in the pants to populate the EPG

I had something similar on my DP-Lite i, it had a hole in its EPG for LCN 7 (71 was okay). Didn't seem to matter what I did on the Ice guide settings, nothing changed, I disabled and re-enabled Ice on the Lite i - still had the hole. I nuked the EPG cache via SETUP and yep you guessed it, LCN 7 was filled in along with the others,

[Grumpy_Geoff]

From what Dave at IceTV emailed you, it looks like he's pretty sure he can fix the problem you have using the information you sent him. It may take a few days for them to test the changes and push them into the IceTV server.

I hope you are right, Peter, but Mac's information that he obtains ABC program data on IceTV on the same frequency as me seems to imply that IceTV already has the ABC id data for the Sunshine Coast.

Regards,
Arthur

Do you have any LCNs sitting at/above 350? Check your Terrestrial TV LCN bouquet

[mac37]

From what Dave at IceTV emailed you, it looks like he's pretty sure he can fix the problem you have using the information you sent him. It may take a few days for them to test the changes and push them into the IceTV server.

I hope you are right, Peter, but Mac's information that he obtains ABC program data on IceTV on the same frequency as me seems to imply that IceTV already has the ABC id data for the Sunshine Coast.

Regards,
Arthur

Do you have any LCNs sitting at/above 350? Check your Terrestrial TV LCN bouquet

Good point G Geoff, If I simply do a Sunshine Coast scan, (or a "complete" scan), I get duplicates in the 350 range, usually for the channels that are the same LCNs for Brisbane and here. SBS etc.. Disappointingly, the duplicates are the ones in the frequency range for the Sunshine Coast, and the ones in the "proper place" 3, 30 etc. are the ones for the Brisbane Channels.
Resulting in the need for manual scanning of the local channels.
However, I still get full EPG for channels 2, 3, etc..
Edit: I should add that I get EPG for all channels (Local and Bris), which are enabled with LCNs in My Account Guide Settings in IceTV.

[amjohnston]

Do you have any LCNs sitting at/above 350? Check your Terrestrial TV LCN bouquet

Yes, there are a number of them including several ABC channels. Can you advise what effect this can have and what can I do about it?

In the meantime I have done the following:

• Performed a manual scan of the ABC channels to select the 606.5Mhz frequency for which IceTV data are available on my P2; still no ABC data on the T4;
  Changed the LCN for all ABC channels from All to the appropriate LCN for each channel; still no ABC data
  Alternated my Region between Brisbane and Sunshine Coast; no ABC data for either setting.
  Rebooted the T4 and reinstalled IceTV; no effect.

The first result implies that my problem is not caused by the lack of ID data for the Sunshine Coast channels (supporting the earlier conclusion based on Mac's information) but an issue with my T4 setup. But the other results leave me perplexed about what might be the cause.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

Do you have any LCNs sitting at/above 350? Check your Terrestrial TV LCN bouquet

Yes, there are a number of them including several ABC channels. Can you advise what effect this can have and what can I do about it?
...

Those ABC services at 350/+ could be the services that IceTV ia sending guide data for.

In the EPG, switch to viewing your Terrestrial TV LCN bouquet (PREV/NEXT buttons switch bouquets) and check the ABC services at 350/+ to see if they're showing guide data.
Another option would be to pop them into your Favourites bouquet (or any other 'user' bouquet if you like) and see if the EPG is populated for those extra services (ensure you're using the correct bouquet when viewing the EPG).

If guide data then shows, then it appears you may have to individually scan as prl posted here - "manual scan on the T4, frequency by frequency", and as it appears, mac37 does - "Disappointingly, the duplicates are the ones in the frequency range for the Sunshine Coast"

For the first manual scan, ensure you set option 'clear before scan' to "yes" when scanning to clear out any old scan data. Then do it again to be sure.
You could scan for the appropriate ABC transponder first, reboot, then check the EPG (use Terrestrial TV LCN bouquet) to see if the guide data is present. You may need to disable IceTV, go to standby, re-enable IceTV, fetch timers and EPG.

[amjohnston]

Thanks for your response, Geoff

I had started a similar procedure to the one you suggest by the time I saw your post. I scanned only the ABC channels but still obtained no data. Then I scanned the SBS channels and, to my surprise, there were no SBS data either. I then did a full location scan and find no IceTV data at all now. I have disabled IceTV and restarted the T4 and enabled IceTV but no effect. Can't do any more this evening since going out shortly. Will report back tomorrow!!!

Arthur

[prl]

...I have disabled IceTV and restarted the T4 and enabled IceTV but no effect. ...

To see the effect of the immediately, you have to follow the "Enable IceTV" with "Fetch EPG and update timers now".

[amjohnston]

Yes, I did that Peter.
Arthur

[prl]

OK. I wasn't sure.

[amjohnston]

Problem solved!

I think the absence of IceTV data for any channel last night must have resulted from my T4 being disconnected from my IceTV account; I don't know why. This morning I disabled IceTV, rebooted, signed in to the IceTV server, fetched EPG data and all channels now appear in the EPG including he ABC channels. Interestingly, after my location scan yesterday, there are fewer duplicates than before with LCNs above 350 and none of them are ABC channels. This may be the cause of the change but I had set the ABC channel LCNs in my IceTV settings to the correct specific LCNs for each channel so that would, presumably, ensure that the presence of duplicates would not matter.

Many thanks to all of you for your help.
Arthur