T2 Analog output problems

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MrQuade
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T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Fri Feb 08, 2019 20:04

I recently tried to set up my T2 onto an old CRT TV and was met with a few issues.

I started with component cables with the resolution set to 576i (TV limitation).
The picture on the TV was coming through in black and white as if I was feeding it a NTSC signal. Pulling the red or blue cables didn't show any distinct change in the picture at all.
Secondly, the audio was outputting a lovely buzzing sound.

The T2 works fine on HDMI on my other TVs.
My T3 works fine on the CRT TV with component out at 576i.

Question:
Is this black and white picture with buzzing sound issue a sign of some common type of hardware failure in the T2?
I am assuming that other users have been successful using a component connection on their T2's.

The other complicating factor is that my T2 was a pre-production model, and may not be entirely intact on the analog side.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Fri Feb 08, 2019 21:32

MrQuade wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 20:04
The picture on the TV was coming through in black and white as if I was feeding it a NTSC signal. Pulling the red or blue cables didn't show any distinct change in the picture at all.

That sounds like only the Y (luma/brightness) signal on the green socket is getting through. Y also carries sync, so that's why the picture is stable and if no Pb or Pr signal is going thorough anyway, then it's consistent with no change when you disconnect the red and blue connectors.

Have you checked the cable on some other component connection?

I can try out my test T2 on component tomorrow and just check whether it can work.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Fri Feb 08, 2019 21:47

prl wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 21:32

That sounds like only the Y (luma/brightness) signal on the green socket is getting through. Y also carries sync, so that's why the picture is stable and if no Pb or Pr signal is going thorough anyway, then it's consistent with no change when you disconnect the red and blue connectors.

Have you checked the cable on some other component connection?
Yes, the green connection was fine and I figured that was the source of the sync. The cable is the same high quality one I used on the T3, so that's known to work.

I get the same effect when using a composite cable on the composite output as well.

One other thing that I should mention is that the CRT TV did use an integral power cable that lacks an earth pin. I don't know if there are any potential earth issues in that setup.

I should also try the component connection on my other LCD tv to rule out the ancient gear. Just strange that the T3 looks ok on that same TV.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:06

Curiouser and curiouser!

My test T2 (which I think is also pre-production) also only produces monochrome component output. But also (I don't know whether you tried this) produces 576i video no matter what the output resolution is set to! The resolution issue doesn't affect what you want to use te component output for, but it's still strange!

On the video signal, I see a varying narrow-pitched (only a few pixels repeat width) diagonal line interference on the screen. I see the same thing whether the T2 is set to output 50Hz or 60Hz.

I also only get a low volume low frequency hum (tone reminiscent of transformer hum) on the analog audio outputs.

I commonly use the component (and sometimes the composite) connection between my T4 and the TV for doing updates and some setup, and I never see this sort of problem using the T4 with the same TV. So if it's an earth loop problem, it's one that's particular to the T2.

Also going against the "earth loop" theory is that if the T2 is completely disconnected from the TV (and also from power earth because it only has a 2-pin power plug), I see about 1.35V AC on the Y video and 0V on Pb and Pr. I see 0.8-0.9V AC on the audio outputs. All open-circuit voltages, so I guess the terminated voltages would be about half that.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by peteru » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:11

MrQuade wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 20:04
The other complicating factor is that my T2 was a pre-production model, and may not be entirely intact on the analog side.
Which revision of the motherboard and what model tuners? I have seen at least 5 different pre-production variants.

Having said that, if you are not getting anything on the Pb and Pr channels and there are issues with composite and audio, I would expect a hardware problem with the individual unit. Any chance that at some stage you may have fried the DACs with static or a surge? One of the best ways to do that is to connect the T2 to a double insulated (non-earthed) TV while it is turned on.

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:28

peteru wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:11
MrQuade wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 20:04
The other complicating factor is that my T2 was a pre-production model, and may not be entirely intact on the analog side.
Which revision of the motherboard and what model tuners? I have seen at least 5 different pre-production variants.

Having said that, if you are not getting anything on the Pb and Pr channels and there are issues with composite and audio, I would expect a hardware problem with the individual unit. Any chance that at some stage you may have fried the DACs with static or a surge? One of the best ways to do that is to connect the T2 to a double insulated (non-earthed) TV while it is turned on.

The fact that I'm seeing the same Pb/Pr and audio problems tends to point away from it being an issue peculiar to MrQuade's T2. The fact that my T2's component out is always 576i also points away from a DAC issue, at least on my T2.

My T2's motherboard is IN-M422DT Ver 1.1 2015.01.19. Tuners are Samsung DNOD44QZH102A (horizontal mount) DNOQ44QAV109A (vertical mount). I'm not sure what role the tuners would play since both T2s seem to work properly using HDMI out.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:39

The TV that my T2 is plugged into is definitely double insulated. If it is a result of plugging into the TV, my T3 has so far survived the ordeal.

I'll have to check the M/B revision a bit later on
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:42

Does your T2 also always output 576i on component, no matter what the output resolution is set to?
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:47

prl wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:42
Does your T2 also always output 576i on component, no matter what the output resolution is set to?
I did notice that as well. I tried a few different resolutions and not much changed on screen. My TV only accepts 576i, so any other resolution is fairly noticeable.

I think we received our T2's at around the same time, so it makes sense that we may have received ones with a common flaw.

I did check back to see if I had tested the analogue connections at any point, but I think I only stuck with digital. I also checked for any mention of any "known issues" out earnings for that batch.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by peteru » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:54

Given that prl has reproduced the issue, I'd say that this is not an issue that would have been caused by your TV.
prl wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:28
I'm not sure what role the tuners would play
Different iterations of the pre-production models had not only different motherboard versions, but also different tuner configurations and motherboard mods. For example, I have a unit with two 109A tuners, rather than one 102A and one 109A. The tuner combo is just another data point as to what board mods you may have.

Do we actually know that a T2 outputs analogue signals properly? Or in other words can we establish whether this is a hardware revision issue as opposed to a problem on all units?

Analogue connections are rare these days, so it is entirely possible that this may have gone unnoticed for a long time.

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sat Feb 09, 2019 14:25

This post seems to suggest that it does work on some units.

https://www.beyonwiz.com.au/forum/searc ... mit=Search
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by Grumpy_Geoff » Sat Feb 09, 2019 14:33

I relocated our T2 to the lounge room and connected it to a 1366x768 LCD using component cables (son was too busy gaming using the T2's usual TV :)).
I used OWIF to set the Video output to YPbPr and Mode to 1080i or lower and I've no video display issue nor any audio issues.
The T2 has a sticker indicating its production may have been May-2015. I bought it in Dec-2015.
If it's of use I can open 'er up and look at the tuner/mainboard details.

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sat Feb 09, 2019 15:01

Thanks for the confirmation GG :)
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by peteru » Sat Feb 09, 2019 15:42

So, a strong possibility of pre-production units being not-quite-right.

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by sub3R » Sat Feb 09, 2019 15:49

prl wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:28
My T2's motherboard is IN-M422DT Ver 1.1 2015.01.19. Tuners are Samsung DNOD44QZH102A (horizontal mount) DNOQ44QAV109A (vertical mount).
I just checked a few photos I previously took of our T2. That is exactly what is printed on the underneath side of the mainboard & the numbering on the tuners are exactly the same. The ...102A tuner also has 140223 LACH on the label, & the ...109A tuner also has 150204 DACH on the label.

I’ve never tried analogue out on the T2 to the TV. If it will help I’ll try & get some component cables connected, but because of the difficulty getting at the back of the TV I won’t be able to do that until sometime tomorrow.

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sat Feb 09, 2019 16:31

peteru wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 15:42
So, a strong possibility of pre-production units being not-quite-right.

That's my suspicion, too.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by peteru » Sat Feb 09, 2019 16:36

A component change does not necessitate a board respin. It's quite possible to have the same board and tuners and see very different behaviour just due to component changes. In some cases, it could be as simple as the orientation of a single component.

If the problem is not evident in the final production models, it's quite possible that the run of 5 or 10 pre-production units had issues that were resolved in time for retail release.

It may be nice to find the differences, but "bags not!"

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sat Feb 09, 2019 18:17

Oh well.

For now I will have to run with the T3 on the "Verge TV" out the back.

My problem is that the TV is putting out enough noise that it keeps setting of the T3's front panel buttons, no matter what repositioning and cable routing and inductive beading I use.

I think for now I will just edit the keymap manually and disable the power button.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by Grumpy_Geoff » Sat Feb 09, 2019 18:25

sub3R wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 15:49
prl wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:28
My T2's motherboard is IN-M422DT Ver 1.1 2015.01.19. Tuners are Samsung DNOD44QZH102A (horizontal mount) DNOQ44QAV109A (vertical mount).
I just checked a few photos I previously took of our T2. That is exactly what is printed on the underneath side of the mainboard & the numbering on the tuners are exactly the same. The ...102A tuner also has 140223 LACH on the label, & the ...109A tuner also has 150204 DACH on the label.

Our T2's "102A" tuner has '140224 FACH' on the bottom row of the label (production batch numbers, perhaps?)
The mainboard is as per your and prl's labeling, and ours has handwritten text of '9.99' and '9.6P'.

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by IanB » Sun Feb 10, 2019 07:38

@prl,

The 50Hz audio hum could be video signals. i.e. audio socket mis-connected to a video output.

Maybe check the Pb and Pr sockets for audio. :?:

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sun Feb 10, 2019 09:45

IanB wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 07:38
The 50Hz audio hum could be video signals. i.e. audio socket mis-connected to a video output.

Maybe check the Pb and Pr sockets for audio. :?:
Interesting thought, but if it is a cross-wiring, I suspect it will still need some degree of surgery to correct. I say that because even the composite video output is affected by the same problem, so in that instance, it isn't just a case of lacking a connection for the colour channels.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:02

IanB wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 07:38
@prl,

The 50Hz audio hum could be video signals. i.e. audio socket mis-connected to a video output.

Maybe check the Pb and Pr sockets for audio. :?:

I'll give it a go. I measured 0V output on the Pb & Pr outputs, but the audio volume may be right down.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:31

prl wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:02
IanB wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 07:38
@prl,

The 50Hz audio hum could be video signals. i.e. audio socket mis-connected to a video output.

Maybe check the Pb and Pr sockets for audio. :?:

I'll give it a go. I measured 0V output on the Pb & Pr outputs, but the T2's audio volume may be right down.

That gets you half-way there. If I connect the TV's analog audio L & R to the T2's Pb & Pr, I get sound on the TV. But If I connect the TV's Pb & Pr to the T2's audio L & R I get some washed-out coloured vertical stripes on the TV, no matter which way around I plug the leads (i.e. neither Pb -> L & Pr -> R nor Pb -> R & Pr -> L work).
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:55

prl wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:31
That gets you half-way there. If I connect the TV's analog audio L & R to the T2's Pb & Pr, I get sound on the TV. But If I connect the TV's Pb & Pr to the T2's audio L & R I get some washed-out coloured vertical stripes on the TV, no matter which way around I plug the leads (i.e. neither Pb -> L & Pr -> R nor Pb -> R & Pr -> L work).
Did you try connecting The T2's Y to the TV's composite input? Perhaps the top and bottom connecters were just reverse connected? That would possibly explain how both component and composite were affected, but still able to get a picture from both.
I presume that a composite output to a component Y input would produce the luminance signal with some noise, and a component Y to a composite input should produce a clean(ish) luminance signal with no colour.

I need to dig my T2 back out of the cabinet to test myself.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by sub3R » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:15

Grumpy_Geoff wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 14:33
I used OWIF to set the Video output to YPbPr and Mode to 1080i or lower and I've no video display issue nor any audio issues.
Likewise, except I didn’t use OWIF.

One thing I did notice; the ‘Video Output’ option on the T2 (configures which video output connector will be used) doesn’t seem to do anything, even after a GUI restart. With Video Output set to YPbPr I still get an output on HDMI, & with Video Output set to HDMI I still get an output on component, & both work on the TV. The input setting on my TV selects what cable is being used, & obviously which cables are connected at the time. This is probably intentional.

It looks like whatever they did to the final production T2s fixed the problem that prl & MrQuade have. Still, if they changed something to make it work there should have been a revision update hand written or stamped somewhere (not the main board version). In my experience it is bad practice not to do this.
Grumpy_Geoff wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 18:25
Our T2's "102A" tuner has '140224 FACH' on the bottom row of the label (production batch numbers, perhaps?)
The mainboard is as per your and prl's labeling, and ours has handwritten text of '9.99' and '9.6P'.
You could be right. I can’t make out what the handwritten scrawl is on ours, probably a quality control signature.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:16

MrQuade wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:55
prl wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:31
That gets you half-way there. If I connect the TV's analog audio L & R to the T2's Pb & Pr, I get sound on the TV. But If I connect the TV's Pb & Pr to the T2's audio L & R I get some washed-out coloured vertical stripes on the TV, no matter which way around I plug the leads (i.e. neither Pb -> L & Pr -> R nor Pb -> R & Pr -> L work).
Did you try connecting The T2's Y to the TV's composite input? Perhaps the top and bottom connecters were just reverse connected? That would possibly explain how both component and composite were affected, but still able to get a picture from both.

I presume that a composite output to a component Y input would produce the luminance signal with some noise, and a component Y to a composite input should produce a clean(ish) luminance signal with no colour.

It's a slightly stranger than that. My T2 has full-colour composite on the Y output, but no usable video output on the yellow composite (VIDEO) output.

As you suggest, that probably explains the diagonal line interference I was seeing when the T2's Y was connected to the TV's Y - possibly an effect of the composite colour modulation. It also explains why the Y resolution didn't change when I changed HDMI/component resolution - you wouldn't expect the composite resolution to change.

Anyway, if your T2 works the same way, then you can at least use composite + audio (using the T2's YPbPr outputs) to the old TV.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by Grumpy_Geoff » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:55

sub3R wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:15
Grumpy_Geoff wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 14:33
I used OWIF to set the Video output to YPbPr and Mode to 1080i or lower and I've no video display issue nor any audio issues.
Likewise, except I didn’t use OWIF.

One thing I did notice; the ‘Video Output’ option on the T2 (configures which video output connector will be used) doesn’t seem to do anything, even after a GUI restart. With Video Output set to YPbPr I still get an output on HDMI, & with Video Output set to HDMI I still get an output on component, & both work on the TV. The input setting on my TV selects what cable is being used, & obviously which cables are connected at the time. This is probably intentional.

Yes, perhaps I hadn't needed to set component output, but I definitely needed to set the resolution to 1080i or lower as my 1366x768 screen won't accept it on component (but it will on HDMI).
I think I recall prl stating the composite outputs were active all of the time (I think it was in the context of a firmware change that defaulted the initial resolution of 1080p and that wasn't accepted by his TV, so he couldn't do an initial setup).

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sun Feb 10, 2019 13:25

Grumpy_Geoff wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:55
I think I recall prl stating the composite outputs were active all of the time (I think it was in the context of a firmware change that defaulted the initial resolution of 1080p and that wasn't accepted by his TV, so he couldn't do an initial setup).

Composite outputs (on the boxes that have them) are always enabled and always at resolution 576i, and yes, that's exactly the reason that I use them :)
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by peteru » Sun Feb 10, 2019 13:46

It's possible that the pre-production run used the wrong part for the RCA connector stack, in which case there would be no board modifications. It may not be a bad idea to take a picture of the back and compare the connectors and labelling between the affected units and production units.

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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sun Feb 10, 2019 14:53

Ok, problem solved and it was embarrassingly simple.

IanB nailed it.

The T2 works perfectly, but the upper and lower analogue outputs were transposed.

Instead of the component outputs being along the bottom and composite/audio being on top, mine are wired with composite below and component on top.

The Jack colours match the silk screen on the back of the unit, it's just the functions are switched top and bottom.

So the component works perfectly on my T2 as does the composite. (Once you plug in the wiring backwards)
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by prl » Sun Feb 10, 2019 16:18

I can confirm what MrQuade has posted. The top and bottom rows of the A/V outputs are swapped on at least some pre-release boxes.

The reason I wasn't seeing the component from the L/R/VIDEO row was because I'd forgotten that the T2 was set to 1080p output, which my TV doesn't recognise. When I changed the output resolution to 1080i, and connected the T2's VIDEO/L/R outputs to the TV's Y/Pb/Pr inputs - perfect composite :)

I disagree with peteru's suggestion that the wrong A/V socket stack component was used in the prerelease models. The socket stack colours match the screenprint on the back panel, and the socket colours and screenprint are the same across my pre-release model, the diagrams in the T2 manual and the image of the T2 back panel on the Beyonwiz web pages.

IMO the problem is a PCB wiring error.
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by MrQuade » Sun Feb 10, 2019 16:29

At least the problem appears to have been identified prior to mass production and has momentarily inconvenienced a sum total of one user ;)

Thanks all for the suggestions and assistance :)
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Re: T2 Analog output problems

Post by peteru » Sun Feb 10, 2019 16:53

prl wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 16:18
I disagree with peteru's suggestion that the wrong A/V socket stack component was used in the prerelease models. The socket stack colours match the screenprint on the back panel, and the socket colours and screenprint are the same across my pre-release model, the diagrams in the T2 manual and the image of the T2 back panel on the Beyonwiz web pages.

IMO the problem is a PCB wiring error.

As far as I can tell, the board has not changed. So it's probably the wrong connector part. Specifically the pin assignment of the pins to sockets may be wrong. It's probably a mixup in one of the RC-60x series. If you have a look at the data sheets, it's quite easy to make a mistake when selecting the part.

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