T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Moderators: Gully, peteru

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Sat Oct 06, 2018 18:46

Well, that's interesting timing. I have been tossing over in my mind whether to do something about the tuner regulator heatsinks at some point, when I see today that tuners A/B have died on me anyway. :evil: Time to look at those regulators sooner rather than later it seems...

But here's my problem now. I have connected my antenna feed to tuner C (as there is no longer any A/B pass-through), but I am not getting any off-air video or audio at all (!), just the info bar over black. Tuner C appears to be working, as I see the signal strength bars change as I change channels, along with the various service icons above the bars. Also, Menu->Information->Service does show relevant info for the different channels e.g. Videocodec info. Just no pics or sounds.

"Tuner configuration" in settings is showing only tuners A & B - I assume logical "A" and "B" are assigned to physical tuners C & D on boot?

What *does* work is the playback of movies already recorded on the HDD, also my IP camera feed is still ok.

I have tried rescanning the tuner, but it finds 0 services, which is odd.

What I also see when I change channels after a 20 sec. delay is a message box:

No data on transponder!
(Timeout reading PAT)

I have attached a Putty logfile of log activity after simply pressing the Channel Up button. It does note at the end "[eDVBServicePlay] DVB service failed to tune - error 2", but I don't quite understand that, as the channel is tuned, as described above, just no visible.

I think I am missing something fundamental somewhere as the T4 seems to basically work. Any ideas please? :?: :?:

Thanks,
Steve
Attachments
putty_20181006_180439_T4_Serial.log
(7.87 KiB) Downloaded 108 times

Grumpy_Geoff
Uber Wizard
Posts: 6490
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 22:54
Location: Perth

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Grumpy_Geoff » Sat Oct 06, 2018 19:11

Have you disabled tuners A & B?
To me, the log shows the T4 using frontend 0 to tune the frequency/transponder. AFAIK, frontend 0 is tuner A, but I've not seen any logs from boxes that have A & B disabled, so I don't know if the logical shift you mention is occuring.

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Sat Oct 06, 2018 19:41

Grumpy_Geoff wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 19:11
Have you disabled tuners A & B?

How would I do that? I am looking at Tuners -> Tuner configuration, where it shows only Tuner A and Tuner B (which I am guessing are physical tuners C/D). I *think* the tuners are disabled by pressing the green button "Select" and the Configration mode to disabled? In any case, I am not seeing the 2 inop tuners in order to disable them. :(

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Sat Oct 06, 2018 19:43

Just to add, I did also do a factory reset and fresh tune, but same tune problem per my OP, 0 channels found. I have to reload my previous settings, which works fine to get me back to where I was.

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:10

I measured voltages around the tuner A/B regulators and confirmed the 1.2V regulator is ok but the 3.3V is sitting at around 0.7V. I removed the heatsink and noticed dark stains on the PCB under the heatsink, similar to peteru's photo in the "T4 behaving like a twin tuner" thread. I removed the dead regulator (U45) and for now have tacked in a TO-220 3.3V regulator, which has brought the T4 back to proper life, until I order a LM1117 - I'll use a TO-252 part rather than the original SOT-223 as there is a difference in height (as peteru has pointed out) with the 1.2V TO-252 regulator. Also, the original regulator was not soldered parallel to the PCB but a little raised on one side, which wouldn't have helped the rather dubious heatsink/adhesive originally in place.

So, I wonder why, when tuners A/B were inop, that while I could see live tuner info in the info bar, there was no video/audio? I thought that the T4 could still operate on 2 tuners?

prl
Wizard God
Posts: 32697
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 13:49
Location: Canberra; Black Mountain Tower transmitters

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by prl » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:55

stevebow wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:10
So, I wonder why, when tuners A/B were inop, that while I could see live tuner info in the info bar, there was no video/audio? I thought that the T4 could still operate on 2 tuners?

Perhaps it depends on whether A/B or C/D have gone out to lunch.
Peter
T4 HDMI
U4, T4, T3, T2, V2 test/development machines
Sony BDV-9200W HT system
LG OLED55C9PTA 55" OLED TV

User avatar
peteru
Uber Wizard
Posts: 9730
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 23:06
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by peteru » Sun Oct 07, 2018 15:25

It's most likely that the other regulator is also on it's way out, but has not failed completely yet. That could cause the tuners to respond to commands and other light traffic, but cause them to fail to deliver any large amount of data when actually put to use.

The other possibility is that the faulty tuners might have been injecting noise into the bus, thus corrupting data from the good tuners.

Hard to tell without performing some major troubleshooting with an expensive MSO hooked up to the board. It's much easier to just replace all the suspect voltage regulators.

"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."
Blog.

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:45

I just thought I'd update with the finished result. I've added a few attached pics:

1 - My temporary solution while I waited for parts to arrive. The 1.2V regulator (LM1085) on the left has a heatsink attached with thermal tape. This seemed more than adequate as the heatsink is only very warm to touch. Trusting in good thermal conductivity of the tape. The 3.3V regulator (LM3940, TO-220 package) definitely needed a small heatsink!

2 - The proper part soldered in place. As previously mentioned, I used a TO-252 part rather than the original SOT-223 so that the final heatsink would sit flat across both regulators.

3 - The finished result. The heatsink I used covered both regulators quite nicely. It came supplied with thermal tape and is light enough that the two regulator bodies appear to be adequate to support it.

For anyone interested, I purchased the parts from RS Components. I used RS because they offer free postage on orders. :D

533-9527 - LM1117DT-3.3 Regulator, $2.54 ea.
750-0908 - 20 x 20 x 19.1mm Heatsink with Adhesive Foil, $8.13 for pack of 5

So, $4.17 total for parts. :D

While I used a hot air station to remove the original regulator, I found the TO-252 package to be large enough to be easily hand soldered.

The temperature measured on the new heatsink above the 3.3V regulator is sitting at 57°C (at 22°C ambient), much better that the original solution. (It mystifies me why, for a premium quality PVR, priced accordingly, that a solution similar to this was not implemented in the first place.)

I bought extra parts to do the other regulator too, and I'll get around to it at some stage. If it doesn't die meanwhile... :evil:
Attachments
1_T4_Temp_Solution.jpg

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:47

I seem to be struggling to get more than one file reliably attached, so I'll post the other pics separately. Here is #2:
Attachments
2_T4_LM1117-3.3_TO-252.jpg

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:48

...and #3:
Attachments
3_T4_Heatsink.jpg

User avatar
MrQuade
Uber Wizard
Posts: 11842
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 13:40
Location: Perth

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by MrQuade » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:48

stevebow wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:47
I seem to be struggling to get more than one file reliably attached, so I'll post the other pics separately. Here is #2:
It's a problem with the forum software. If you try to preview your post prior to posting, or if you try to edit it afterwards, then the images will break.
Logitech Harmony Ultimate+Elite RCs
Beyonwiz T2/3/U4/V2, DP-S1 PVRs
Denon AVR-X3400h, LG OLED65C7T TV
QNAP TS-410 NAS, Centos File Server (Hosted under KVM)
Ubiquiti UniFi Managed LAN/WLAN, Draytek Vigor130/Asus RT-AC86U Internet
Pixel 4,5&6, iPad 3 Mobile Devices

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:02

peteru wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 15:25
It's most likely that the other regulator is also on it's way out, but has not failed completely yet. That could cause the tuners to respond to commands and other light traffic, but cause them to fail to deliver any large amount of data when actually put to use.

The other possibility is that the faulty tuners might have been injecting noise into the bus, thus corrupting data from the good tuners.

With the T4 up and running again, Tuners C & D do work fine as preferred tuner, so who knows what the inop tuners were doing to the bus. I assume the 1.2V rail also feeds the tuners, so perhaps their behaviour without the 3.3V rail is somewhat unpredictable.
Hard to tell without performing some major troubleshooting with an expensive MSO hooked up to the board. It's much easier to just replace all the suspect voltage regulators.
I didn't bother to scope out the rails or anywhere else, with the T4 back to normal. Like you say, simple enough (and very cheap) to just replace the regulators and heatsink.

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:04

MrQuade wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:48
It's a problem with the forum software. If you try to preview your post prior to posting, or if you try to edit it afterwards, then the images will break.

I hope that's eventually fixed as it's a real nuisance!

prl
Wizard God
Posts: 32697
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 13:49
Location: Canberra; Black Mountain Tower transmitters

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by prl » Wed Oct 17, 2018 13:16

stevebow wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:04
MrQuade wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:48
It's a problem with the forum software. If you try to preview your post prior to posting, or if you try to edit it afterwards, then the images will break.

I hope that's eventually fixed as it's a real nuisance!

It is. I first complained about it ages ago.

The details are:
  • It affects all attachments, not just images.
  • If the post has only a single attachment, you can preview and edit the post without restrictions.
  • If the post has more than one attachment, previewing or editing the post will delete all but one attachment from the post. After that attachments often seem to be broken and you may be unable to delete the remaining attachment to start over, or add the other attachments back.
A workaround when you have more than one attachment is to prepare the whole post text and preview it, and only then add the attachments and post immediately without previewing. Do not attempt ro edit the post once you've posted it.
Peter
T4 HDMI
U4, T4, T3, T2, V2 test/development machines
Sony BDV-9200W HT system
LG OLED55C9PTA 55" OLED TV

Grumpy_Geoff
Uber Wizard
Posts: 6490
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 22:54
Location: Perth

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Grumpy_Geoff » Wed Oct 17, 2018 14:50

The phpBB fix has been around since early January:
"Issues involving attachments not showing, or not all showing, when posts with multiple attachments are posted or previewed"
The phpBB forum wrote:
Fix: Open phpBB/includes/functions_posting.php & find:

Code: Select all

foreach ($attachment_data as $count => $attach_row)
On a separate line BEFORE, ADD:

Code: Select all

$attachrow_template_vars = [];
Find and DELETE:

Code: Select all

$attachrow_template_vars = array();

As per https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=2453611

IanSav
Uber Wizard
Posts: 16846
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 15:00
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by IanSav » Wed Oct 17, 2018 17:36

Hi,

I have also personally contacted Jai and asked to get the forum issues fixed. He indicated that he would refer the issue to his web support team. Obviously that hasn't yet happened.

Regards,
Ian.

Paul_oz53
Wizard
Posts: 2787
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 02:34
Location: Melbourne

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Paul_oz53 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 00:33

stevebow wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:48
...and #3:

You've convinced me - I've placed my order with RS Components. I'll be premptively replacing both 3.3v regulators and heat sinks!
__________________________________
Paul
Beyonwiz T4, 2 x U4: FW - 19.3 20211010
Samsung QA85Q80BAWXXY 4K TV
Samsung QA65Q80TAWXXY 4K TV
Samsung HW Q800BXY soundbar
OverlayHD 1.70, IceTV, Foxtel IQ4
2 x Win7 PCs, 2 x Win10 PCs
Denon AVR -X2400H

bpratt
Master
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 14:10
Location: Jimboomba Woods, Queensland
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by bpratt » Fri Dec 20, 2019 09:41

stevebow wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:45

1 - My temporary solution while I waited for parts to arrive. The 1.2V regulator (LM1085) on the left has a heatsink attached with thermal tape. This seemed more than adequate as the heatsink is only very warm to touch. Trusting in good thermal conductivity of the tape. The 3.3V regulator (LM3940, TO-220 package) definitely needed a small heatsink!
Found those other parts okay on RS Components, I don't suppose someone can provde a link for these parts please ?

I have a bloke I know up here that can do surface mount stuff, so I've just got to order the parts for him to replace them for me. :)

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:04

bpratt wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 09:41
stevebow wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:45

1 - My temporary solution while I waited for parts to arrive. The 1.2V regulator (LM1085) on the left has a heatsink attached with thermal tape. This seemed more than adequate as the heatsink is only very warm to touch. Trusting in good thermal conductivity of the tape. The 3.3V regulator (LM3940, TO-220 package) definitely needed a small heatsink!
Found those other parts okay on RS Components, I don't suppose someone can provde a link for these parts please ?

I don't recall exactly where I originally purchased these as they were parts I already had laying around in my workshop.

The 1.25V regulator stick-on heatsink is similar to one of these:

https://www.jaycar.com.au/heatsink-pin- ... e/p/HH8580

The TO-220 LM3940 and heatsink can also be had from Jaycar:

https://www.jaycar.com.au/lm3940-low-dr ... r/p/ZV1565
https://www.jaycar.com.au/to-220-mini-6 ... k/p/HH8502

bpratt
Master
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 14:10
Location: Jimboomba Woods, Queensland
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by bpratt » Wed Jan 08, 2020 14:31

Thanks Steve, but I was after the original packaging type that's on the T4 motherboard, and was going to order the lot from RS, and then visit my mate who can do the surface mount stuff.

I don't suppose anyone has the links on RS for those particular regulators? .. I've got the links for the other ones.

prl
Wizard God
Posts: 32697
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 13:49
Location: Canberra; Black Mountain Tower transmitters

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by prl » Wed Jan 08, 2020 16:32

bpratt wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 14:31
Thanks Steve, but I was after the original packaging type that's on the T4 motherboard, and was going to order the lot from RS, and then visit my mate who can do the surface mount stuff.

I don't suppose anyone has the links on RS for those particular regulators? .. I've got the links for the other ones.

You probably don't want the exact original packaging, that's part of the problem.

Here
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11565&p=157364#p157364
warkus recommends changing both regulators to the same regulator types, but both in TO-252 packaging. Then the regulators are the same height, and presumably if you use good quality thermal cement for the heatsink, the thermal resistance between the devices and heatsinks should be minimised, and hopefully the degradation of the cement avoided.

Unfortunately, warkus doesn't give links to supplier pages in the post.
Peter
T4 HDMI
U4, T4, T3, T2, V2 test/development machines
Sony BDV-9200W HT system
LG OLED55C9PTA 55" OLED TV

User avatar
peteru
Uber Wizard
Posts: 9730
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 23:06
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by peteru » Sat Jan 18, 2020 19:36

Make sure that you point out to your mate that this is not likely to be a standard surface mount component replacement. Extensive PCB cleaning will be required and possibly some track repair too.

"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."
Blog.

bpratt
Master
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 14:10
Location: Jimboomba Woods, Queensland
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by bpratt » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:31

peteru wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 19:36
Make sure that you point out to your mate that this is not likely to be a standard surface mount component replacement. Extensive PCB cleaning will be required and possibly some track repair too.
Thanks for that.

He did it the other day, and all 4 tuners are now back.... I remember back a little while ago it only showed 3 tuners.

Robak
Apprentice
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53
Location: TUGGERAH N.S.W

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Robak » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:25

Hi everyone, sorry to dig up this old problem but I have been fortunate enough not to run into this problem until now.

I have been through all of the threads on this subject which go round and around with links to each other, all of which helps piece together the issues and various solutions.

Sending to Mark will probably be the end result.

Anyway there have been part recommendations from RS components for the 3.3v regulator RS #533-9527 but it has been "Discontinued"
The RS # 535-8613 is the closest thing I can find as a replacement and I think will do the job.
LM1117IDT-3.3 I'm not sure what the difference between "IDT" over "DT" is ?

The most often asked but dodged question is about the 1.25v Adjustable regulator. What voltage range are we looking at?
Unfortunately my LM1085 was the one that separated upon removal of the original heat sink therefore is in need of replacement along with the 3.3v

A part number would be great if anyone has it on hand.
RS# 533-9375 = LM1085IS-ADJ/NOPB is a Package Type of TO-263, is that going to be too large and I would need a 3.3v to match it.

Not so keen on going the TO-220 way.

I did find a dose of Isopropyl alcohol a couple of times and let it sit for 30sec softened the bond of the thermal paste to the point it lifted off quite easily having cut away as much as I could remove with a sharp blade.

Any assistance with part identification will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Rob. :)
Samsung LA46M81BD
Denon AVR-2807
PS3
Beyonwis DP-S1
Beyonwiz DP-P1 X̶ ̶2̶ Now X1
Beyonwiz DP-P2 X1
B̶e̶y̶o̶n̶w̶i̶z̶ ̶T̶4̶ ̶(̶6̶T̶)̶)

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Fri Oct 09, 2020 13:58

Robak wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:25
The RS # 535-8613 is the closest thing I can find as a replacement and I think will do the job.
LM1117IDT-3.3 I'm not sure what the difference between "IDT" over "DT" is ?

The "DT" version has an operating temperature range of 0°C to 125°C whereas the "IDT" version is −40°C to 125°C. It would be fine to substitute the "DT" with an "IDT".
The most often asked but dodged question is about the 1.25v Adjustable regulator. What voltage range are we looking at?
I'm not sure what you mean by "dodged", but the LM1085-ADJ is an adjustable regulator that has been configured in-circuit to a fixed 1.25V.
A part number would be great if anyone has it on hand.
It appears that the LM1085 is no longer being supplied in a TO-252 package at Mouser/RS/Element14, perhaps it can still be found elsewhere, I did not check further. The nearest package is TO-263, which is a SMD variant of the TO-220 package, much larger than TO-252. There is plenty of area on the PCB to accommodate a TO-263 package, but it makes heatsinking a little more difficult with the smaller LM1117, as you have noticed. It may be worth while contacting Warkus, he may still have the original part still in stock.
RS# 533-9375 = LM1085IS-ADJ/NOPB is a Package Type of TO-263, is that going to be too large and I would need a 3.3v to match it.
If you wish to take this path, a complication will be that a TO-263 LM1117 will not physically fit onto the existing area on the PCB as-is. You could bodge it in, but you will need to know what you are doing, taking into consideration the original single heatsinking arrangement could be a little problematic.

User avatar
peteru
Uber Wizard
Posts: 9730
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 23:06
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by peteru » Fri Oct 09, 2020 15:47

Don't share a heatsink between the two regulators. Use a separate heatsink on each LDO for a total of four heatsinks.

"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."
Blog.

Robak
Apprentice
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53
Location: TUGGERAH N.S.W

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Robak » Fri Oct 09, 2020 15:48

Thanks for the quick response stevebow. :)

Awesome that the IDT can replace the DT,

The reason I say most often dodged is that the same question was asked a few times and a few ways but the conversation moved on in another direction without answering it directly. Most comments were along the lines of they don't play up so leave them alone.

Anyway looking on the RS site I have a filter path of:
Home/Semiconductors/Power Management ICs/Low Dropout Voltage Regulators:
Applied Filters of
Package Type = TO-252
Maximum Operating Temperature = +125Deg C

Giving me 80 products:

Selecting Output Voltage:

Gives me the following

1.25 → 38 V (2)
1.25 → 12 V
1.25 → 13.8 V (3)
1.25 → 3.3 V (2)

I'm trying to avoid the added compilations of changing the package size of the 1.2v and understand the "configured in-circuit to a fixed 1.25V."
There are fixed 1.2v regulators that someone else found but the resistors would change it to another value.

Thanks for your help

Rob
Samsung LA46M81BD
Denon AVR-2807
PS3
Beyonwis DP-S1
Beyonwiz DP-P1 X̶ ̶2̶ Now X1
Beyonwiz DP-P2 X1
B̶e̶y̶o̶n̶w̶i̶z̶ ̶T̶4̶ ̶(̶6̶T̶)̶)

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Fri Oct 09, 2020 16:39

If you are looking at sourcing an alternative to the LM1085, you would need to be sure that the regulator in-circuit configuration would work for the replacement. IIRC, the ADJ pin is tied to ground via a 0 ohm resistor in the T4. IIRC... Check the datasheets of possible candidates to be sure, taking care that the pinout matches the original.

Also consider the current capability of the replacement device. I did measure around 1.65A going through the LM1085, but it could have been higher at times I wasn't logging that. Unfortunately, a datasheet for the Samsung tuner is all but impossible to find, so best play it safe by using at least a 3A regulator, the rating of the original LM1085.

If you use TO-252 devices for both regulators, it is fine to use a single heatsink for both. The key being the same package so the heatsink sits flat across both devices, unlike the original manufacturer solution. Just be sure it clears all surrounding devices on the PCB. Individual heatsinks work too, of course, as suggested elsewhere. I did use a single heatsink (see my 17 Oct 2018 photo) which was more than adequate. You may wish to (and probably should) do the thermal math yourself, but the heatsink I chose passed the math.

That heatsink was a self-adhesive type, but I found that there wasn't enough surface area of both regulators combined to form a reliable bond that would last the time, especially if the T4 is moved or bumped excessively, so I would recommend thermal adhesive for long-term reliability.

User avatar
peteru
Uber Wizard
Posts: 9730
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 23:06
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by peteru » Fri Oct 09, 2020 17:44

It is virtually impossible to get the two LDOs to be co-planar. That means that a single heat sink will make poor contact with at least one, but most likely both parts. That in turn will result in reduced cooling at best and acting as a heat shield (trapping the heat) at worse. Thermal pads are not much use, since there is nothing to apply pressure to them.

By far the simplest and cleanest option is to use a few heat sinks like this or this.

"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."
Blog.

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by stevebow » Fri Oct 09, 2020 18:59

peteru wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 17:44
It is virtually impossible to get the two LDOs to be co-planar.

Sorry Peter, but I respectfully disagree. I had no problem with this at all myself, and it's not difficult to confirm. Perhaps our experiences differ. Yeah, microscopically there will be a difference, but the thermal tape supplied on the heatsink I used was more than adequate to make up for that.

Robak
Apprentice
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53
Location: TUGGERAH N.S.W

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Robak » Fri Oct 09, 2020 21:26

OK Baby steps here
Can someone please give me the EXACT number of the LM1085 Original Part.
LM1085 narrows my search down from 50,000 to 500
We have here but to name but a few from one supplier:
IS
ISX
IS-ADJ
IT
IT-ADJ
SX
ISX
ISX-ADJ
ISX=ADJ/NOPB
And every voltage variant to go with it 1.2, 3.3, 5.0, 12 etc
The List goes on

This is the whole point of my post to find out what the exact specifications are that i'm trying to match.
I will happily spend another day searching all of the relevant suppliers for something that works, if I know EXACTLY what specifications I am trying to match.
Then I can worry about how precisely I can match the heights of the two chips and what length I will go to for insuring that there is enough heat sink capacity to extract the heat produced by each component given all possible conditions.
At the moment if I could get my hands on another P series Unit I would and just through this T4 into the trash.
At least they could all play together and the NAS with ICE TV and everybody was happy.

The question has been Dodged yet again...
Samsung LA46M81BD
Denon AVR-2807
PS3
Beyonwis DP-S1
Beyonwiz DP-P1 X̶ ̶2̶ Now X1
Beyonwiz DP-P2 X1
B̶e̶y̶o̶n̶w̶i̶z̶ ̶T̶4̶ ̶(̶6̶T̶)̶)

User avatar
peteru
Uber Wizard
Posts: 9730
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 23:06
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by peteru » Sat Oct 10, 2020 00:41

The specifications for the parts on rev 1.1 boards are:

Code: Select all

U44 AME1085/D2pack
U45 IL1117-3.3 TO252
U46 AME1085/D2pack
U47 IL1117-3.3 TO252
U45 & U47 take D5.0V input and generate two DTU3.3V outputs.
U44 & U46 take D3.3V input and generate two DTU1V2 outputs.

The info I have says that the tuners require 3.3V@360mA and 1.2V@924mA, each. There are also a couple of 5V inputs, one rated at 5V@70mA and the other is unrated.

So, ballpark figures would be less than 1A on the 3.3V regulators and around 2A on the 1.2V regulators. That translates to about 1.5W power dissipation on the 3.3V regulators, and about 4.2W on the 1.2V regulators. As you can see from the PCB design, U44 & U46 have some copper mass on the board to help with the heat, but you really want a decent heat sink on those two components and you want to make sure it's making good contact.

If this is all too hard and you really want to go back to the DP series, I have a fully functional, hardly used DP-S1 for sale. Send me a PM.

"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."
Blog.

Robak
Apprentice
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53
Location: TUGGERAH N.S.W

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Robak » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:17

Thanks Pete PM sent
Samsung LA46M81BD
Denon AVR-2807
PS3
Beyonwis DP-S1
Beyonwiz DP-P1 X̶ ̶2̶ Now X1
Beyonwiz DP-P2 X1
B̶e̶y̶o̶n̶w̶i̶z̶ ̶T̶4̶ ̶(̶6̶T̶)̶)

Robak
Apprentice
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53
Location: TUGGERAH N.S.W

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Robak » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:01

I would just like to Thank Peteru for selling me the closest thing to a brand new DP-S1anyone could wish for.
Most of the accessories are still in sealed plastic bags.
Having just plugged it in, retune and setup preferences along with network settings.
Now I have a HEX tuner PVR setup in the house controlled by ICETV and a DVD player to boot.
One VERY Happy camper indeed.
All three PVR's are talking to each other and playing nicely.

Thanks again Peter
Much appreciated

Rob. :D
Samsung LA46M81BD
Denon AVR-2807
PS3
Beyonwis DP-S1
Beyonwiz DP-P1 X̶ ̶2̶ Now X1
Beyonwiz DP-P2 X1
B̶e̶y̶o̶n̶w̶i̶z̶ ̶T̶4̶ ̶(̶6̶T̶)̶)

User avatar
peteru
Uber Wizard
Posts: 9730
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 23:06
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by peteru » Sat Oct 17, 2020 14:26

No worries, I'm glad to hear that it all works nicely together. It's always good to see people being able to make use of working hardware, rather than throwing it out or having it collect dust.

Good luck with your attempts to fix the T4.

BTW: Your signature reminds me, I have a Denon AVR-2807 with a dead voltage regulator that I need to repair. :(

"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."
Blog.

Robak
Apprentice
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53
Location: TUGGERAH N.S.W

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Robak » Sun Nov 01, 2020 16:31

In answer to my own question I have fitted a pair of AZ1084D-ADJ Regulators that are outputting a lovely 1.249v
These are rated at 5a instead of 3a in a TO-252 package.

Ran the system for 6 hours after doing a Full channel rescan and everything has a constant 54 to 56deg temp.

Cutting the RS 7500908 heat sinks in half so each reg has its own I have popped the cover on.

One T4 ready to go if one of the P series should die.
Attachments
FAC3C15D-DAB3-47C1-91D6-FB8FA5A4FBD0.jpeg
FAC3C15D-DAB3-47C1-91D6-FB8FA5A4FBD0.jpeg (20.19 KiB) Viewed 4369 times
28E3D338-268A-4B91-B5D7-D3B1C45A0B67.jpeg
28E3D338-268A-4B91-B5D7-D3B1C45A0B67.jpeg (33.63 KiB) Viewed 4369 times
Samsung LA46M81BD
Denon AVR-2807
PS3
Beyonwis DP-S1
Beyonwiz DP-P1 X̶ ̶2̶ Now X1
Beyonwiz DP-P2 X1
B̶e̶y̶o̶n̶w̶i̶z̶ ̶T̶4̶ ̶(̶6̶T̶)̶)

jplouis
Apprentice
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:28

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by jplouis » Sat Jun 12, 2021 18:15

I too have lost two of my T4 tuners - Otherwise the T4 is running fine.

I'm thinking of following stevebow and checking the 3V3 regulators.

I notice the stevebow replaced his regulators with 800mA LM1117DT-3.3 regulators.

I also notice from petru that each 3V3 regulator services two of the tuners requiring 360mA each.

Question: Does the 800mA regulator have enough margin to service this load?

I'm thinking of replacing with an lm1117idt 3.3 from element 14.

https://au.element14.com/texas-instrume ... dp/3122014

Will this do the job, or any other suggestions.

Netless

Twizzle
Master
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 09:43

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Twizzle » Sun Jun 13, 2021 15:34

I have 2 working U4s but I have a T4 (that I don't use anymore) that has 2 tuners playing up. I would be incapable of fixing it myself, does Warkus still do repairs?

User avatar
Gully
Moderator
Posts: 7736
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 22:08
Location: Melbourne

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Gully » Sun Jun 13, 2021 15:40

Twizzle wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 15:34
I have 2 working U4s but I have a T4 (that I don't use anymore) that has 2 tuners playing up. I would be incapable of fixing it myself, does Warkus still do repairs?
No, unfortunately he has retired. I think that only leaves the guys in Sydney unless others have any other suggestions?
Cheers
Gully
_____________
Beyonwiz U4
Logitech Harmony Elite
Google Pixel 6 Pro

Twizzle
Master
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 09:43

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Twizzle » Sun Jun 13, 2021 16:34

Thanks Gully, where can I find details for Sydney people & are they any good?

User avatar
Gully
Moderator
Posts: 7736
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 22:08
Location: Melbourne

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Gully » Sun Jun 13, 2021 17:00

Twizzle wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 16:34
Thanks Gully, where can I find details for Sydney people & are they any good?
They're called NASA Electronics. Best thing to do is search for their details and people's feedback as I haven't dealt with them.
Cheers
Gully
_____________
Beyonwiz U4
Logitech Harmony Elite
Google Pixel 6 Pro

Twizzle
Master
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 09:43

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by Twizzle » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:28

Thank you for that Gully.

prl
Wizard God
Posts: 32697
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 13:49
Location: Canberra; Black Mountain Tower transmitters

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by prl » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:54

Peter
T4 HDMI
U4, T4, T3, T2, V2 test/development machines
Sony BDV-9200W HT system
LG OLED55C9PTA 55" OLED TV

jplouis
Apprentice
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:28

Another T4 Saved

Post by jplouis » Tue Jun 22, 2021 23:14

Following the very useful repair outline from this thread, I have successfully replaced both 3V3 regulators in my T4 and now have all 4 tuners back in action 😁. Only one of the regulators had failed, but I thought I may as well replace them both & upgrade the heatsinks while I had the box open.

Parts used

NCP1117DT33T5G From Element14 68c each
25x25x12 mm Heat Sinks Salvaged from an old modem

I also followed the advice to order TO-252 packages, so that now the new heat sinks sit nice and flat over both the 1V2 & 3V3 regulators.
I tossed up between Thermal Plaster, this looked to be the original heat sink adhesive, and Thermal Tape. I went with Thermal Tape in the end as it had much better thermal conductivity, less messy and gave a secure fit now that both regulators are the same height.

I found the old heatsinks were easily removed by slipping a razor blade underneath, the remaining plaster appeared to be silicone based and was subsequently easily cut away.

A few photos of the fix.

Old Heatsinks removed
T4TunerPowerSupplyRepair2S.jpg
Old Regulators removed and PCB cleaned up
T4TunerPowerSupplyRepair4S.jpg
New Regulators fitted
T4TunerPowerSupplyRepair5S.jpg
New Heat Sink's fitted
T4TunerPowerSupplyRepair6S.jpg
Happy to have my T4 box back in working order 😃

Many thanks to the contributors making their knowledge & fixes readily available on these forums.

stevebow
Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21
Location: Sydney

Re: Another T4 Saved

Post by stevebow » Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:07

jplouis wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 23:14
I tossed up between Thermal Plaster, this looked to be the original heat sink adhesive, and Thermal Tape. I went with Thermal Tape in the end as it had much better thermal conductivity, less messy and gave a secure fit now that both regulators are the same height.

Let us know how the thermal tape holds out. I found the adhesion was a little inadequate and the heatsinks were a little loose. The adhesive "stickiness" is likely designed to attach the entire base area of the heatsink to a device rather than just two small squares.

In my case, I bit the bullet and took the Grand Approach :D :

Replacing the T4 Tuner regulators with TO-220 devices

Even with this solution the hottest heatsink is still Ambient+44.7°. There's a heck of a lot of heat being dissipated into the PCB with the original design!

jplouis
Apprentice
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:28

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by jplouis » Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:36

Thanks Stevebow

I'll keep an eye on the heatsinks / temperature - maybe even fit a couple of 18b20 temperature sensors inside the T4 case to monitor the temperature.

I share your concern about the fitting of my new heatsinks, agree that the thermal tape would generally assume contact over the full base area of the heatsink for good adhesion - but I'm probably more concerned about the heat transfer capacity over such a small contact area & via the plastic case 🤔

I thoroughly approve of your improved design - definitely TO-220 regulators & proper heatsinks should have been in the original design specs.

Anyway the T4 is working fine at the moment - but I have your grand solution filed away - just in case.

PS Are those heatsinks priced piecewise or by the Kilo? 😲

User avatar
wizatree
On probation
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:43

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by wizatree » Thu Aug 12, 2021 15:14

T4 Low Drop Out Low Voltage Tuner Power Supply Regulators reaching thermal shutdown.

Hi Forum members. I just wanted to add some comments that maybe helpful for others who own a beyonwiz T4 and are not sure what to do about their impending regulator problems. There is a lot of great information detailing various methods of repair and outlining the need to take action before failing regulators damage the onboard tuners. I thank the forum members for taking the time to help others like me in solving our technical challenges and problems.

Firstly the T4 is a brilliant PVR that unfortunately is no longer available for purchase so everyone we can save from this problem is well worth saving. Its ability to record multiple programs across 4 networks with acrobatic skill and precision is unrivalled. I also love my T3 but the extra horse power of the T4 processor along with the extra onboard tuner really takes its performance to the next level.

The 4 tuners A,B, C & D are powered by 2 sets of 2 surface mounted regulator chips with a common heat sinks for each set. The regulators LM1085 ADJ ( 1.24 Volts ) & a LM1117 ( 3.3 Volts ) are running Tuners A&B and another set of chips are powering Tuners C&D. The common heat sink for each set of regulators is attached with a heat transferring plaster compound. On new units the regulators happily run at temperatures very close to their operating limit. As the T4 unit ages the high temperature load takes its toll on this heat transfer compound and it begins to degrade and become less efficient and the operating temperature slowly creeps up to the point where the regulators begin to go into thermal shut down. This resulted in the picture being viewed briefly going to black. This issue can also go on to damage your tuners if allowed to go on for some time without intervention.

A very quick and easy remedy ( if, when or before ) this happens is available to everyone of any skill level. This is to change the preferred tuner for viewing and recording to C in your settings. The tuners are normally selected in the series A,B,C,D. So over time the regulators supplying tuners AB bears the brunt fo the load & thus the heat dissipation arrangement degrade at a faster rate.

When you change your preferred tuner and preferred tuner for recording to C it will spread the heat load more evenly across your tuners under high load conditions ( when multiple recordings are underway across multiple networks ). This will change the tuner selection sequence to C, A, B, D.

To make this change go to Menu/Setup/Tuners/Tuner allocation/ the first 2 items need to be changed from tuner A to tuner C.

This change should be a good short term solution to buy you some time to allow you to organise a longer term solution. You can also use this method to prove or isolate a suspected problem with one of your tuners.

The longer term solution:

There are various methods outlined in previous forum posts covering this problem. They all require the careful removal of the original common heat sink by carefully cutting the degraded heat sink compound ( with a thin sharp knife ) between the heat sink and the regulators weakening its adhesion until it can be carefully be removed. Care must be taken so that mechanical stress is not applied to the regulators that may damage the printed circuit board. Some methods of repair have include replacing the original parts with upgraded TO-220 parts and associated heat sink hardware. These are a great solutions, but require a good soldering iron capable of keeping the heat up to give a good solder joint and very practiced soldering skills. If you are not confident with your soldering their is nothing wrong with getting some help here because this job is tricky and things can go wrong quite easily.

Another consideration is that many replacement chips & equivalents are hard to get right now because of the global supply chain disruptions caused by Covid. So it can take some data sheet study to work out appropriate equivalent replacements. I was able to source a replacement equivalent TO-220 versions of LD1117 for the 3.3 Volt regulator from ebay & source TO-220 heat sink 13x19 mm & hardware from Wiltronics here in Ballarat. Jaycar do sell a suitable regulator LM3940 & hardware ( but be careful the pinout varies from the original and there appears to be a variation in the supporting cap values ) The LD1117 went on without needing to change any pinout configuration or having to change any onboard supporting capacitors. The 1.2Volt reg can still be replaced by sourcing TO-220 LD1085 adj from Element 14 1087152 with the standard pin config, no change to program resistor values but some supporting caps may need changing please refer to your data sheets.

I chose not to change the LM1085 from the original regs but to simply upgrade the individual heat sink and attach surface mount heat sink using Jaycar Thermal transfer adhesive NM2790.


I hope these notes are of some value to anyone with a T4 being sadly confronted with this problem. Please feel free to offer any further polite comments or questions. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

All the best.

Phil d.

pmhutch
Apprentice
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 17:39

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by pmhutch » Sun Oct 31, 2021 21:14

Thanks for all your detailed explanations.

I've just started having these problems and some brown substance affecting nearby components. Pictures:

https://www.screencast.com/t/r0TJaaE2

I'm a bit nervous about the 'full' repair of replacing the regulators given that we're talking about surface mount components. AFAIK, there isn't an authorised (i.e. knowledgeable) BW repairer here in Melbourne, and I simply don't have the time to learn what is needed and then do it myself.

The solutions sound fairly complex for me to explain to a local repairer (presumably this would have to be a computer repair shop rather than TV ?) and the cost would soon mount up.

I'm wondering if a simpler fix would be to ask a repairer to carefully cut off the existing heatsinks and remove the white compound, clean the brown stuff off the board and then attach a multi-finned heatsink to each pair of regulators with new thermal cement (like in one of the earlier photos in this thread). I've read that there is a design issue with the regulators being different thicknesses, but, even with this being the case and the heat transfer being imperfect, wouldn't they stay cool enough with the larger multi-finned heatsink?

I was also thinking of fitting a couple of small fans inside the top cover, above the heat sinks, to improve airflow. Would the supply from the main board to the existing fan have enough capacity for a couple more, and is it a 5V or 12V supply?

Of course, this all assumes that the regulators are still OK when at a low enough temperature and they start to cause problems when they get too hot - and not that they are damaged in some way.

I'd appreciate your comments.

Thanks
Paul
St KIlda, Vic

bernien
Apprentice
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 08:15
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: T4 - Tuners A/B have died

Post by bernien » Thu Aug 11, 2022 15:43

Recently lost tuner C and D. Fixed it myself with just a soldering iron and a few parts.
* AMS1117-3.3 Voltage Regulator. Pack of 5 for $3.85 - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/175005826683
* Pin Grid Array Heatsink - 14mm. 4 off. $3.95 each - https://www.jaycar.com.au/pin-grid-arra ... =relevance
* 1.5mm GOOT Desolder Braid $5.95 - https://www.jaycar.com.au/1-5mm-goot-de ... =relevance
* Isopropyl Alcohol 99.8% Spray 250ml $6.95 - https://www.jaycar.com.au/isopropyl-alc ... c1295f4c46

I just replaced U47 for tuners C and D but will probably have to replace the other voltage regulator in the future. Have four spares out of pack of five. Fitted new heatsinks to all four tuner chips. Old heatsinks can be carefully prised off with a screwdriver. New heat sinks just stick on. Clean the area thoroughly with Isopropyl Alcohol once the heatsinks have been removed. Using a soft toothbrush helps.

Desoldering and removal of the old chip is the trickiest part. Work carefully with desolder braid and soldering iron until no more solder can be removed. Gently lift the chip at the back while heating up the back connection then continue with the two front connections. This is a very delicate operation and takes great care to avoid damage. Lift the chip just enough to clear the connection each time otherwise you may lift or break the copper circuit connections.

Soldering in the new chip was the easiest part.

The chips are very small. I used Clip on Magnifying Lenses on my reading glasses for the whole procedure.
Beyonwiz T4-2000 HDMI
Windows 10, Gb PC Network Card
TP-Link Archer VR1600v NBN Modem Router
TP-Link TL-PA8010P AV1200 Powerline Network
TP-Link TL-SG1008D Gb Eight Port switch
Samsung UA60H7000 Smart TV
Logitech Harmony 650
VideoReDo TVSuite V6

Post Reply

Return to “Hardware Discussion”