x265

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x265

Post by Gully » Sun Mar 01, 2015 09:46

I thought I might revive this topic to ask the Peters or anyone else if they have been able to find x265 support for the T3?

There is now a fair amount of material using this codec at HD resolutions and it would be great if the T3 could handle it.
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Re: x265

Post by MrQuade » Sun Mar 01, 2015 09:59

The chipset is way too old to have hardware support for it, and h.265 needs a fair amount of CPU power to decode in software, something the T3 doesn't have in abundance, so I am going to guess that the answer is no.
http://www.libde265.org/blog/2014/02/28 ... rformance/

Though there mayyyyy be some low res, low bitrate videos it might be capable of decoding.
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Re: x265

Post by Gully » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:18

You may be right.

And I realise it supports 4k video which clearly is not going to happen on the T3.

I just thought I would check now as the last discussion was before there were any media to test with. Also googling for it shows some pages in other languages that look like they are discussing x265 enigma2 support but I couldn't read them. :D
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Re: x265

Post by craigh » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:49

Hi Gully

I have recently revamped my home media setups to in some ways to cater for yesterday today and a little of the future.

My T3 takes place in my main viewing room and provides live TV and timeshiftimg (But not viewing recordings or network content)

In each other location around the house I have an old series Beyonwiz providing live TV and timeshiftimg.

I then have a cheap Kodi device in each room (currently quad core android boxes - less than US$140 each) (Kodi is what used to be XBMC). This box provides:
- Access to all T3 recordings via SMB and WebUi interface (Enigma Kodi Plugin)
- View T3 epg and set recordings on T3
- view T3 times
- Delete T3 recording
- get notified when T3 starts a recording etc
- access to all networked content via a single SQL repository (on NAS) with all metadata etc etc that Kodi provides.
- Indexes to DB all new content and highlights to UI whats new each day
- plugins for all networks catch up TV - freeview + type stuff
- plays back everything you can give it including x265 at 4k. (also plays T3 HD recordings with ease, no stutter, sync problems etc at all)
- lets me pause anything and pick up at same spot in any other room.

Has been running a treat now for 4 weeks.

Not diminishing what the T3 does at all but like the series 1 devices it can't be everything to everybody and over time it just gets more gap. But it is a great central recording and live Tv time shift etc.

This model suits our family great but is a bit to setup initially.

Our focus is on media and lots of meta data about shows etc etc

Can replace the Kodi boxes over time as new standards features etc are needed.

I could have got by with a much cheaper Kodi box in each room by not choosing x265 in box but...what the heck. :-)
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Re: x265

Post by Gully » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:13

Hi Craig

I realise all that and already have other hardware that supports x265 but it doesn't stop me wanting the T3 to do all that it can do and support.
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Re: x265

Post by NedIS » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:45

I suppose when we talk about our new T3's there design is probably nearly three years old now?

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Re: x265

Post by jama » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:17

Since this discussion is specific to x265 (HEVC) not device I thought I would bump it to the top now we have the T4.

Has the situation changed as regards the capability with the T4 ?

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Re: x265

Post by MrQuade » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:36

I can't find any mention of h.265 support in the BCM7424 on the web. The chip looks like it was released by Broadcom in 2011 which predates the codec's official release by two years or so, so it is not surprising that it would lack hardware support.

Going back to my previous link, I think the BCM7424 will still not have enough CPU grunt to decode h.265 at a useful resolution in software, considering that a i7-2700K@3.5GHz runs at 33% load for a 720p file.
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Re: x265

Post by jama » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:47

Didn't realise that. New device with 4 year old chip, that's a bit sad.

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Re: x265

Post by netmask » Sun Jun 28, 2015 15:12

For X265 check out this http://www.minix.com.hk/Reviews.htm or the Popcorn VTEN or Chameleon Open Hour units
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Re: x265

Post by michaelp2005 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:26

craigh wrote:Hi Gully

I have recently revamped my home media setups to in some ways to cater for yesterday today and a little of the future.

My T3 takes place in my main viewing room and provides live TV and timeshiftimg (But not viewing recordings or network content)

In each other location around the house I have an old series Beyonwiz providing live TV and timeshiftimg.

I then have a cheap Kodi device in each room (currently quad core android boxes - less than US$140 each) (Kodi is what used to be XBMC). This box provides:
- Access to all T3 recordings via SMB and WebUi interface (Enigma Kodi Plugin)
- View T3 epg and set recordings on T3
- view T3 times
- Delete T3 recording
- get notified when T3 starts a recording etc
- access to all networked content via a single SQL repository (on NAS) with all metadata etc etc that Kodi provides.
- Indexes to DB all new content and highlights to UI whats new each day
- plugins for all networks catch up TV - freeview + type stuff
- plays back everything you can give it including x265 at 4k. (also plays T3 HD recordings with ease, no stutter, sync problems etc at all)
- lets me pause anything and pick up at same spot in any other room.

Has been running a treat now for 4 weeks.

Not diminishing what the T3 does at all but like the series 1 devices it can't be everything to everybody and over time it just gets more gap. But it is a great central recording and live Tv time shift etc.

This model suits our family great but is a bit to setup initially.

Our focus is on media and lots of meta data about shows etc etc

Can replace the Kodi boxes over time as new standards features etc are needed.

I could have got by with a much cheaper Kodi box in each room by not choosing x265 in box but...what the heck. :-)
Hi Craig

Setup sounds good, so I was wondering what Kodi box you use?

I currently use T3, T2 and DPH1 for media playback from a NAS. Your solution sounds more robust.

Can you use IR control for the Kodi boxes?

Thanks

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Re: x265

Post by craigh » Fri Jul 31, 2015 13:29

Hi Michael

Depends what you run Kodi on.

I have it on Android, Raspberry PI2, both have remotes out of the box or can be added like the PI2.

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Re: x265

Post by MrQuade » Fri Jul 31, 2015 14:34

I run on an ASRock mini PC which has a built in IR receiver. I use a Logitech Harmony remote to control it, and it works a treat. I did remap a few buttons to new commands to help my usage patterns, but there is a handy plugin to help with that.

I run Kodi on top of Windows, but you can run openelec for a no-cost alternative.

Most of the off-the-shelf mini PCs have some sort of IR capability, Zotac, Intel NUC, Gigabyte etc.....

You just have to poke around to find one that fits your needs. Some of the more powerful ones that might be required to decode x.265 will require active cooling, but you can get some moderately powerful mini PCs that would be required for software video decoding that are entirely passively cooled.

One of the new NUC models would be my choice if I was in the market at the moment.
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Re: x265

Post by michaelp2005 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 16:18

Thanks. I don't have any mini pc's or Raspberry's set up. Did try researching the Pi's, but couldn't see an off the shelf solution :-)

Maybe a NUC is the way to go in the future.

But as long as they have IR, then I can integrate with my universal remotes (using irule and a pronto), which was a key criteria. All of my kit is behind cupboard doors.
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Re: x265

Post by craigh » Fri Jul 31, 2015 17:45

michaelp2005 wrote:Thanks. I don't have any mini pc's or Raspberry's set up. Did try researching the Pi's, but couldn't see an off the shelf solution :-)

Maybe a NUC is the way to go in the future.

But as long as they have IR, then I can integrate with my universal remotes (using irule and a pronto), which was a key criteria. All of my kit is behind cupboard doors.
I am using Pronto's to control mine
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Re: x265

Post by Rockets » Sat Aug 01, 2015 18:46

michaelp2005 wrote: Maybe a NUC is the way to go in the future.
I have pretty much the same setup as Craig but I have Intel NUC's with OpenELEC. Work's great. NUC's use a standard MCE remote for IR.
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Re: x265

Post by raymondjpg » Tue Aug 04, 2015 18:56

MrQuade wrote:Some of the more powerful ones that might be required to decode x.265 will require active cooling, but you can get some moderately powerful mini PCs that would be required for software video decoding that are entirely passively cooled.
Is that so? I run a couple of HTPCs, one is a Haswell NUC, with both Kodi and Emby configured to use MPC-HC. You can either use the inbuilt LAV filters or external ones if you prefer, and the video decoder has options for hardware acceleration of HEVC. I haven't tested the decoding efficiency of HEVC myself, I am playing mostly x264 video.

As for IR, I personally favour a Harmony Remote and USB IR receiver configured with Intelliremote. MPC-HC also adds an extra dimension for remote control commands with individual key mapping.
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Re: x265

Post by MrQuade » Tue Aug 04, 2015 19:42

raymondjpg wrote: Is that so? I run a couple of HTPCs, one is a Haswell NUC, with both Kodi and Emby configured to use MPC-HC. You can either use the inbuilt LAV filters or external ones if you prefer, and the video decoder has options for hardware acceleration of HEVC. I haven't tested the decoding efficiency of HEVC myself, I am playing mostly x264 video.
I had a hunt for some figures, and it seems I could have been underestimating the grunt required.

CPU Decoding:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p ... ost1717938

60-80% of an i7-4790 CPU, which is quite an impressive piece of silicon.

Hybrid Decoding using the iGPU:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p ... ost1718243

The latest 900 series NVidia GPUs with hardware decoding capability look well and truly capable though, but these might preclude the ability to use in a truly mini PC:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p ... ost1706902

As it is, I think even the most powerful fanless mini-PCs are going to struggle until most of the work can be offloaded to the GPU.
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Re: x265

Post by raymondjpg » Wed Aug 05, 2015 08:48

MrQuade wrote:As it is, I think even the most powerful fanless mini-PCs are going to struggle until most of the work can be offloaded to the GPU.
That's a useful set of quotes. My experience is with Intel HD Graphics 4600 and 5000, and the hybrid decoding tests indicate a CPU load of about 25% using LAV/MPC (inbuilt LAV) DXVA decoding. Hardly taxing, but certainly more than x264 needs (about 10% last I looked).

Without DXVA2 IIRC CPU load decoding x264 could be up to 20%.

The point is made that LAV filters need more work to optimise hardware decoding HEVC, and (just a personal view) HEVC needs considerably more work to bring video quality up to x264 standard. I would expect both to be done pretty fast, given the advantage afforded by considerably smaller video file sizes.
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Re: x265

Post by MrQuade » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:09

raymondjpg wrote: The point is made that LAV filters need more work to optimise hardware decoding HEVC, and (just a personal view) HEVC needs considerably more work to bring video quality up to x264 standard. I would expect both to be done pretty fast, given the advantage afforded by considerably smaller video file sizes.
Yep, better hardware support is required, or a prodigious amount of CPU horsepower (and electrical power/heat/etc).
I should get a hold of some h.265 media for my own testing purposes. My own HTPC is an ASRock Vision 3D Sandy Bridge Series. It contains a i5 2520M and GeForce 540M graphics. I suspect that it will try to decode entirely on the CPU, and I also suspect it will not cope well ;).

I think the current T series models have buckleys chance of decoding anything useful as-is as they lack the appropriate decoding hardware. If I had to pluck a figure out of the air, the CPU in the Broadcom BCM7424 must be at least 5 times slower than an Intel i7-4790. Considering that a 1080p h.265 using software only decoding occupies more than 50% of the Intel.....well, do the maths.

Until Broadcom bring out a new SoC with hardware acceleration of h.265, and it can be incorporated into some future Beyonwiz STB, we are relying on HTPCs for HEVC media. I'll keep an eye out for any good passive pre-built units I come across (Zotac does have a good range), and see if the lower end Celeron units can cope assuming they can offload a decent portion of the work to the GPU (It will be a close call I reckon, and that heatsink/case will be seriously hot to touch).

All the current single board computers and thumbstick PCs that I know of will be in the same boat as the T series I suspect. I'll be interested to see how quickly the other SoC vendors get their act together too. Perhaps the newer NVidia based units (Shield etc...)will come up with the goods.
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Re: x265

Post by prl » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:13

MrQuade wrote:...
Until Broadcom bring out a new SoC with hardware acceleration of h.265, and it can be incorporated into some future Beyonwiz STB, we are relying on HTPCs for HEVC media.
...
I suspect this will ever be the case comparing PVRs based SoC hardware vs HTPCs.
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Re: x265

Post by MrQuade » Thu Aug 06, 2015 16:25

And in timely fashion, Intel are releasing info about Skylake and there are a few reviews up.

Specifically, I spotted this one:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/inte ... neration/4

This page mentions a full fixed-function HEVC encoder/decoder in the new GPUs in the Skylake generation CPUs.
This will be a HUGE benefit to the low-power HTPC-friendly versions of those chips.
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Re: x265

Post by Rockets » Thu Aug 06, 2015 23:24

MrQuade wrote:Full fixed-function HEVC encoder/decoder in the new GPUs in the Skylake generation CPUs.
This will be a HUGE benefit to the low-power HTPC-friendly versions of those chips.
Going to be on the look out for when there's a Skylake NUC then!
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Re: x265

Post by Recusant » Fri Feb 19, 2016 19:22

Hi guys, reading through this what would be the solution if our media is stored in H.265? Could i, for example, run Kodi or something on a laptop to do transcoding and use the Wiz to talk to that? (i've zero experience with streaming short of what my Wiz DP-P2 can do).
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Re: x265

Post by MrQuade » Fri Feb 19, 2016 19:28

Recusant wrote:Hi guys, reading through this what would be the solution if our media is stored in H.265? Could i, for example, run Kodi or something on a laptop to do transcoding and use the Wiz to talk to that? (i've zero experience with streaming short of what my Wiz DP-P2 can do).
If the laptop has the grunt to do that, it may work. HEVC does take considerable grunt to decode in software, and the laptop may or may not be able to use whatever graphics hardware it has available to transcode to a network client rather than to the screen. The latest Skylake CPUs from intel can decode HEVC media in hardware, but not at 10 bit colour depths.
Plex server may work as a suitable transcoder for the T series.
I would probably not bother though. If you are downloading HEVC media, then you probably want a different client that can render it natively.
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Re: x265

Post by Recusant » Fri Feb 19, 2016 20:07

Thanks. I like the general usability of the Wiz rather than HTPCs.. and of course not having to set it up to the same extent.

I've got a NAS, but it has a weak processor. Maybe it's time to get serious and get myself a more potent NAS or something.. or just wait. My P2 is still working nicely enough. What's the release date for the T5? ;)
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