Audio enhancements

[Star6key]

I wonder if the new audio driver will fix the random loss of audio (requiring a reboot to fix) when recording from the hdmi input... and yes, it happened to me again a few days ago.

[peteru]

I wonder if the new audio driver will fix the random loss of audio (requiring a reboot to fix) when recording from the hdmi input... and yes, it happened to me again a few days ago.

There were no changes to the HDMI input code.

[MrQuade]

The Yamaha has a mode where it can specifically set zone 2 to copy whatever the main zone is playing (and I guess downmix to stereo as required), but that's only from consulting the manual. I have not actually tested.

I had a quick squiz at the Yamaha's manual out of interest, and it mentions that "Party Mode" where the main zone is copied to the other zones will automatically force all zones to stereo output. So I guess Yamaha gets around the multi-zone limitations in a slightly different manner to Denon, but the forced stereo is done at the amp rather than the source.
I'll check my Denon tonight and see if manually forcing the main zone to stereo within the amp then enables audio to be routed to the other zones too. I suspect it will, and is equivalent to Yamaha's "Party Mode".

[peteru]

The Yamaha also has another mode where zone2 can be configured to follow main zone. Sounds a lot like party mode, but it must be different in some way.

[NoDeity]

I realize you are prioritising the T series, but is there any movement on the U4 yet Also, any idea of a timeline yet It's not like I'm desperate, just curious is all.

[peteru]

I've been poking in the U4 specific code this week. Nothing to announce yet, but it is getting attention.

[gtwundke]

Sorry for replying to an old thread, but it seems like the best place to post.

First, I guess... has there been any progress on better audio support for the U4?

Second, a couple of observations that I've made recently on DTS support in the U4 as I've been ripping my DVD/Blu-ray library to MKVs.

With all of my DVDs, I've never had success getting any DTS tracks to play (just silence -- no audio passed to the receiver at all -- when I select them). I just assumed it was totally broken on the U4.

However, I ripped the Toy Story blu-ray and suddenly the DTS tracks worked! I originally thought that it was because it was using DTS ES, but I went back through my DVD rips and found that Monsters Inc. (yeah, I like Pixar movies ) uses DTS ES for its DTS track, and that produces no sound. I've only ripped a few of my blu-rays, but I've found that all DTS tracks seem to work (i.e. at least produce audio) so far.

So I can't for the life of me work out what the difference is, and why blu-ray rips seem to work (although obviously it would be nice to get the full lossless version of the DTS tracks), but DVD rips don't. MediaInfo shows exactly the same information for audio tracks in both, but one works and one doesn't.

There also seems to be a problem when a mkv contains an audio track encoded using FLAC. The following is a bit long-winded, but explains further.

Yesterday I was trying to get a rip of my Sting Live in Berlin blu-ray to work properly. It contains one DTS-HD MA track and an LPCM Stereo track, so I set Handbrake to keep the DTS-HD track as-is and to use FLAC for the LPCM track. The FLAC track plays back fine, but when selecting the DTS track there's no sound, and after a few seconds the video starts stuttering and then freezes (although it doesn't seem to freeze the U4 itself as I can still just stop the video). Handbrake gives you the option of extracting the DTS Core part as a separate track, so I tried that. In this case, again, the FLAC track plays back fine, but the DTS Core track plays back at about 2x speed (i.e. sounds like you're fast-forwarding through it)!

I spent about 2-3 hours re-encoding things using different combinations for the DTS track(s), including re-encoding with AC3, but always with the same results (FLAC worked, DTS-HD stuttered, others played at twice the speed). However, I finally left out the FLAC track, and everything started working!

Note that the U4 always starts playing the FLAC track when it's present, even though it's not set as the default audio track in the mkv, so it seems that FLAC playback causes something to break when then selecting another track.

And by the way, in all cases above, every audio track played back fine in Windows using VLC; it was only the U4 that was having issues.

I've now settled on keeping the DTS-HD MA track, and encoding the LPCM track using AC3, and everything works as expected (again, with only the lossy part of the DTS track being sent to the receiver).

I'm not sure if any of this is a common experience for others, or whether it's even of any use, but I've spent a fair bit of time trying to work out what's going on, so thought I'd at least let you know.

[MrQuade]

Short and unhelpful answer, but I've not come across a regular DTS track that the U4 can't play yet, but I haven't done an exhaustive test or all my media.

Are you setting the U4 to decode or pass-through DTS? (I am guessing passthrough given the nature of your post). Does the U4 detect the track at all? What happens if you set it to decode?

[gtwundke]

Short and unhelpful answer, but I've not come across a regular DTS track that the U4 can't play yet, but I haven't done an exhaustive test or all my media.

Hmm, interesting. Part of the reason for posting was just to gauge whether I'm alone here or whether it's a common issue. Unfortunately I don't have any other files to test other than my ripped DVDs and Blu-rays.

Are you setting the U4 to decode or pass-through DTS? (I am guessing passthrough given the nature of your post). Does the U4 detect the track at all? What happens if you set it to decode?

Yep, in general I'm setting it to passthrough, as my receiver handles just about anything, but setting the downmix option(s) (I assume that's what you mean by decode) does nothing for me; still no audio. From reading some other posts I was under the impression that those options do very little at the moment anyway (I've never seen them make a difference on the receiver), although I may be mistaken there as things get a little confusing sometimes between the different Wiz models.

The U4 detects the tracks ok and allows me to select them (i.e. they show up in the Audio selection dialog as 'DTS' -- by the way, it would be super helpful to display the associated name of the audio track in that display, assuming the SDK supports that! ), whereas it won't show tracks that it definitely doesn't support, such as TrueHD.

Thanks for the reply though; asking good questions helps to narrow things down.

[MrQuade]

Yep, in general I'm setting it to passthrough, as my receiver handles just about anything, but setting the downmix option(s) (I assume that's what you mean by decode) does nothing for me; still no audio. From reading some other posts I was under the impression that those options do very little at the moment anyway (I've never seen them make a difference on the receiver), although I may be mistaken there as things get a little confusing sometimes between the different Wiz models.

The downmix options work on the U4, but are limited to a stereo LPCM downmix. The T series can downmix to mutlichannel LPCM over HDMI, or stereo LPCM over SPDIF.

The U4 detects the tracks ok and allows me to select them (i.e. they show up in the Audio selection dialog as 'DTS' -- by the way, it would be super helpful to display the associated name of the audio track in that display, assuming the SDK supports that! ), whereas it won't show tracks that it definitely doesn't support, such as TrueHD.

Yep, no True-HD support at all, but as you have observed on your other working files, the lossy portion of DTS-MA will be extracted ok.

Very odd indeed. Are you using different software to rip your DVDs vs the Blurays? Perhaps it is a container/muxing problem and the track is actually ok. I'm at a bit of a loss though, since the U4 is seeing the track...

Perhaps a MediaInfo dump of one of the broken ones will shed some light?

[gtwundke]

The downmix options work on the U4, but are limited to a stereo LPCM downmix. The T series can downmix to mutlichannel LPCM over HDMI, or stereo LPCM over SPDIF.

Ahh, I just tried it again, and I think I see why I originally thought it wasn't doing anything: a) you have to change audio tracks for a change to actually occur (and for DTS it seems you must change to a non-DTS track first), and b) my receiver displays that it's getting a PCM signal in a way that I didn't expect, so, user error there

However, here's where things start to get messy! I get different results depending on which downmix options are selected, and which video I'm playing (DVD vs Blu-ray). Here's a breakdown of what I see with each downmix option turned on/off. Note that my receiver also shows when its audio source is muted.

DVD (DTS doesn't work)
AC3 Downmix: OFF DTS Downmix: OFF
AC3 track: Sound (AC3)
DTS track: No Sound (no indication at all on receiver, so can't really tell anything; I suspect absolutely nothing is being sent)

AC3 Downmix: ON DTS Downmix: OFF
AC3 track: Sound (PCM)
DTS track: No Sound (no indication at all on receiver)

AC3 Downmix: OFF DTS Downmix: ON
AC3 track: Sound (AC3)
DTS track: No Sound (receiver sees a non-muted PCM signal)

AC3 Downmix: ON DTS Downmix: ON
AC3 track: Sound (PCM)
DTS track: No Sound (receiver sees a muted PCM signal)

So, oddly enough, turning the AC3 downmix option on/off can affect the DTS downmix signal, which seems strange. Still no actual DTS audio though.

For the blu-ray section I've omitted the AC3 track as it's all the same as before (work as expected).

Blu-ray (DTS does work)
AC3 Downmix: OFF DTS Downmix: OFF
DTS track: Sound (DTS)

AC3 Downmix: ON DTS Downmix: OFF
DTS track: Sound (DTS)

AC3 Downmix: OFF DTS Downmix: ON
DTS track: No Sound! Video halts after 1-2 seconds! (receiver sees a non-muted PCM signal)

AC3 Downmix: ON DTS Downmix: ON
DTS track: No Sound! Video halts after 1-2 seconds! (receiver sees a muted PCM signal)

So this ends up being worse, as turning on DTS downmix kills the sound, plus the video for some reason.

Very odd indeed. Are you using different software to rip your DVDs vs the Blurays? Perhaps it is a container/muxing problem and the track is actually ok. I'm at a bit of a loss though, since the U4 is seeing the track...

All media is ripped using DVDFab into an ISO, and all videos are then encoded using Handbrake with the exact same video settings (H.265), and passing all audio tracks through untouched.

Perhaps a MediaInfo dump of one of the broken ones will shed some light?

I've gone one better and created a couple of short samples with super-low-quality video (files are 9MB and 24MB in size), so hopefully one or two people can give them a go and see what happens. Here are the Dropbox links for the files:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e3t45pg252fj0 ... t.mkv?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4z035x8vhrqbe ... t.mkv?dl=0

Hopefully some of this helps . I honestly don't know if it's just me or a more general problem.

[MrQuade]

So, oddly enough, turning the AC3 downmix option on/off can affect the DTS downmix signal, which seems strange. Still no actual DTS audio though.

Odd about needing to switch to a non DTS track to effect a change. That's another behaviour that is different to the T series that I hadn't noticed. The T series can switch downmixing on the fly.

Strange that you get that muting behaviour with the AC3 downmix setting. I wouldn't have expected that to make any difference. On the T series, the DTS and AC3 downmix settings are not separate which is another difference.

[MrQuade]

Ok, I tested your two files with downmix disabled.

On the T4, I don't get any video from them, but I expect that as they are HEVC encoded. Both AC3 and DTS tracks work and can downmix correctly.


On the U4 things get more interesting.
On the Monsters Inc, the AC3 track works, but the DTS track doesn't.

On Toy Story, both tracks work and I can switch between them with no worries. (Though of course I can't downmix as I would expect).

The differences that I see between the two:
The DTS track is the first track in the Toy Story file, while on the Monsters Inc, it is the second audio track.
Toy Story is listed as having a DTS-MA track, and Monsters In is simply DTS ES.
In Monsters Inc, the audio channels are listed as C L R Ls Rs Cb LFE whereas the Toy Story, they are listed as C L R Ls Rs LFE Cb (LFE and Cb order are reversed).

I wonder if the difference is the track order? For testing purposes, I'd recommend cutting out the second AC3 track so that you don't get any potential unpredictable complications from that.

I am not sure if I have any DTS-ES files of my own to test. All my DTS tracks do not include the Cb channel.

Coincidently, you got my memory working, and I found one of my own old posts. I have already reported that DTS downmix functionality isn't working on the the U4. Also, the U4's handling of DTS-MA has been noted here too. I must add those into the bug tracker when I get a chance and make a note of your finding with the AC3 setting interaction.

The drivers in the T and U series are quite different, and the U4's audio system is a bit of a pig by all accounts.

I will do a few more tests when I get home tonight

[gtwundke]

Odd about needing to switch to a non DTS track to effect a change. That's another behaviour that is different to the T series that I hadn't noticed. The T series can switch downmixing on the fly.

When watching TV, changing the AC3 downmix setting causes an immediate change, but it seems to be different when playing back mkv files. I've never tried it when playing a video in a different container though, which may be different again.

[gtwundke]

On the U4 things get more interesting.
On the Monsters Inc, the AC3 track works, but the DTS track doesn't.

Well, it's nice to know that I'm not going crazy

On Toy Story, both tracks work and I can switch between them with no worries. (Though of course I can't downmix as I would expect).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "...I can't downmix as I would expect"? Is that because of my testing, or is there some other reason you expect downmixing wouldn't work? Do you see the same no-audio/video-stopping issues that I do when DTS downmixing is enabled on Toy Story?

The differences that I see between the two:
The DTS track is the first track in the Toy Story file, while on the Monsters Inc, it is the second audio track.
Toy Story is listed as having a DTS-MA track, and Monsters In is simply DTS ES.
In Monsters Inc, the audio channels are listed as C L R Ls Rs Cb LFE whereas the Toy Story, they are listed as C L R Ls Rs LFE Cb (LFE and Cb order are reversed).

I wonder if the difference is the track order? For testing purposes, I'd recommend cutting out the second AC3 track so that you don't get any potential unpredictable complications from that.

I am not sure if I have any DTS-ES files of my own to test. All my DTS tracks do not include the Cb channel.

I've tried a single audio track, tracks re-arranged, etc, and it makes no difference unfortunately. Also, it's not just DTS-ES tracks that do this. I have plenty of other videos with "plain" 5.1 DTS tracks (ripped from DVD) that do the same thing (no audio).

The only "major" difference that I've seen between tracks that work and those that don't is that all of the blu-ray DTS tracks that I've tried have reported some type of "delay" in MediaInfo (you'll need to turn on "Advanced Mode" in the Debug menu to see this), whereas DVD DTS tracks all have a delay of 0 (as far as I've seen... I haven't checked them all). I have no idea whether this is a factor, but there are so few other clues to go on. Ultimately I expect it's going to rely on some actual low-level debugging to work out the problem, rather than seeing something obvious in a MediaInfo report.

Coincidently, you got my memory working, and I found one of my own old posts. I have already reported that DTS downmix functionality isn't working on the the U4.

Note that with regards to this bug, in general it's recoverable, but I did get the U4 to lock up by having DTS downmixing turned on and then started playing a version of Toy Story with only the DTS track. Rather than playing for a few seconds then pausing, it just immediately stopped, then I got the busy indicator, ultimately requiring a power cycle using the back switch.

Also, the U4's handling of DTS-MA has been noted here too. I must add those into the bug tracker when I get a chance and make a note of your finding with the AC3 setting interaction.

With regards to this post, DTS-MA tracks are currently detected, at least as far as providing the DTS Core portion (as with the Toy Story video). Maybe it's not consistent though?

Additionally, I had a look at the Dolby Trailer site that was mentioned and downloaded Dolby 3D Glasses Return Trailer Flat (2D). This file exhibits exactly the same problems I encountered with the Sting Live In Berlin blu-ray (from my first post). The PCM track is initially played, even though it's not set as the default, the DTS track doesn't work, and the AC3 track plays back about twice as fast as it should. If you happen to still have this file, or are willing to download it, I'd love to see whether your U4 exhibits the same issues.

Thanks for your help so far! I've lately been thinking about getting into doing some work on the U4 code (there are a number of things that I'd like to fix/add). It's a pretty complicated codebase though, from my initial look through it!

[MrQuade]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "...I can't downmix as I would expect"? Is that because of my testing, or is there some other reason you expect downmixing wouldn't work? Do you see the same no-audio/video-stopping issues that I do when DTS downmixing is enabled on Toy Story?

Well I expect no dowmix capability based on both of our previous testing yes.
I didn't notice any video stops, but I didn't test for long and the compression was so high it was a bit hard to tell in any case.

I've tried a single audio track, tracks re-arranged, etc, and it makes no difference unfortunately. Also, it's not just DTS-ES tracks that do this. I have plenty of other videos with "plain" 5.1 DTS tracks (ripped from DVD) that do the same thing (no audio).

I just mean that for testing purposes, I would limit your files to a single audio track to cut down on complication. I didn't mean that you should do that as any sort of final solution to the issue.

With regards to this post, DTS-MA tracks are currently detected, at least as far as providing the DTS Core portion (as with the Toy Story video). Maybe it's not consistent though?

It'd be best to figure out what was going wrong with the known bad ones before we can guess at why the DTS-MA core tracks seem to work for all that have been tested so far and if that means all would work.

Additionally, I had a look at the Dolby Trailer site that was mentioned and downloaded Dolby 3D Glasses Return Trailer Flat (2D). This file exhibits exactly the same problems I encountered with the Sting Live In Berlin blu-ray (from my first post). The PCM track is initially played, even though it's not set as the default, the DTS track doesn't work, and the AC3 track plays back about twice as fast as it should. If you happen to still have this file, or are willing to download it, I'd love to see whether your U4 exhibits the same issues.

I'll have a look.

I know that PeterU has said that the U4's audio code wasn't as easy to work with as the T series, and that there were some known issues with dowmixing, but I am frankyl surprised that the DTS code is this broken. I honestly hadn't come across any broken audio tracks myself, but it seems that the DTS support is pretty fragile indeed.

EDIT:
Ahh, I did already have that file.
The DTS track plays back but is distorted.
The AC3 track does appear to play a little fast, but not twice as quick. It is more evident in some choppiness in the audio.
And yes, the PCM track is not listed as default, but appears first in the U4's track listing and seems to be selected as default because of that. Odd.

Anyway, that file is pretty complicated, and we can probably put it aside so the actual issue can be tracked more simply. It also behaves in an almost identical fashion on the T4 which tells me that something else could be wrong with it.

[gtwundke]

Well I expect no dowmix capability based on both of our previous testing yes.
I didn't notice any video stops, but I didn't test for long and the compression was so high it was a bit hard to tell in any case.

Yeah, ok, fair enough. If it's going to stop, it will definitely (in my experience) do it within 2-3 seconds at the most.

I just mean that for testing purposes, I would limit your files to a single audio track to cut down on complication. I didn't mean that you should do that as any sort of final solution to the issue.

Yep, was just pointing out all of the combinations that I've tried (I've gone through a lot of testing for this, unfortunately ). I have found it handy to have at least one other track though, just because it means I can change tracks to try out the downmixing stuff, and to make sure AC3 is still working. Plus the blu-ray files are generally 24fps, and my TV/receiver combo takes a fair while to change over, which makes stopping/starting videos a bit of a pain. I get where you're coming from though; minimise the variables.

It'd be best to figure out what was going wrong with the known bad ones before we can guess at why the DTS-MA core tracks seem to work for all that have been tested so far and if that means all would work.

Understood. I was just pointing out that it wasn't a black and white issue (DTS-MA is never detected), which may be useful to document.

I know that PeterU has said that the U4's audio code wasn't as easy to work with as the T series, and that there were some known issues with dowmixing, but I am frankyl surprised that the DTS code is this broken. I honestly hadn't come across any broken audio tracks myself, but it seems that the DTS support is pretty fragile indeed.

Yeah, I was actually much more comfortable when I thought there was just no support for it . Being partially broken is a lot worse for the end-user in many ways, but I definitely understand that you guys are working with what you've got in terms of developing for these boxes.

I wonder if PeterU is available/willing/able to chime in and shed some light though.

By the way, I have now found a couple of DVDs with DTS tracks that have non-zero delays, and which don't work, so it's not that (which I'll admit sounded unlikely anyway).

[gtwundke]

EDIT:
Ahh, I did already have that file.
The DTS track plays back but is distorted.
The AC3 track does appear to play a little fast, but not twice as quick. It is more evident in some choppiness in the audio.
And yes, the PCM track is not listed as default, but appears first in the U4's track listing and seems to be selected as default because of that. Odd.

Did you have downmixing turned on or off? When I was investigating the Sting blu-ray, I did see some different effects occur sometimes (DTS did play back but sounded ... weird), and sometimes the AC3 was faster than other times. There was no clear rhyme or reason for the changes in behaviour, and it seemed a bit random.

Anyway, that file is pretty complicated, and we can probably put it aside so the actual issue can be tracked more simply. It also behaves in an almost identical fashion on the T4 which tells me that something else could be wrong with it.

I definitely think it's a separate class of issue though, as it very closely tracks my results with the Sting video, which means I don't think it's just a problem with that file in particular. I dare say that there's an underlying issue that happens to affect both the T4 and the U4.

[MrQuade]

Did you have downmixing turned on or off? When I was investigating the Sting blu-ray, I did see some different effects occur sometimes (DTS did play back but sounded ... weird), and sometimes the AC3 was faster than other times. There was no clear rhyme or reason for the changes in behaviour, and it seemed a bit random.

Off in my testing. I start with that as the base case since it is the "better" setting for my gear, even though downmixing is the default state.

I think it best to stick with one setting, on or off, pick one, then characterise the behaviour across a number of files to find the pattern. Once that is done, then switch the setting and re-characterise it. Otherwise all this testing can get lost in detail.

That should give PeterU something to work with. If that at least can be fixed, then we can look into any issues with switching tracks on the fly or switching downmixing on or off on the fly.

I'm also not speaking for PeterU on this too. His hands might be tied based on free time. At least he now has a DTS capable receiver to test with in contrast to his earlier posts .

[mick_queensland]

Ok, I tested your two files with downmix disabled.

On the U4 things get more interesting.

Coincidently, you got my memory working, and I found one of my own old posts. I have already reported that DTS downmix functionality isn't working on the the U4. Also, the U4's handling of DTS-MA has been noted here too. I must add those into the bug tracker when I get a chance and make a note of your finding with the AC3 setting interaction.

The drivers in the T and U series are quite different, and the U4's audio system is a bit of a pig by all accounts.

Hi there,
just thought I would add my tuppence worth, My U4 is doing the same thing with HEVC MKV files that have DTS5.1 or AAC5.1 audio. I am not sure what U4 downmix I have set at but I get no audio to the stereo TV playing these files. I fix it by transcoding to an MP4 file. Time consuming but it works, as long as I dont need the hidef audio. It would be nice to have the full audio capability though. Hoping that happens sometime in the future.

Cheers, Mick

[MrQuade]

I fix it by transcoding to an MP4 file. Time consuming but it works, as long as I dont need the hidef audio. It would be nice to have the full audio capability though. Hoping that happens sometime in the future.

What audio format are you converting to?

You could potentially leave them in mkv containers and just transcode the audio, and also just leave the video intact. That wouldn't take much time (less then a minute or two I would imagine).

There should also be a way to transcode just the audio and then add it to the mkv as a second audio track. That way, you still have all the original soundtrack for when/if things are fixed.

[mick_queensland]

Hi MrQuade,
good idea, I will see what I can do with the audio track and add to MKV, which sounds like the best option.

I have been transcoding to MP4 x264 with AAC stereo or AAC surround 5.1 to allow my T2 and T3 to play the files as well, sort of, "well, if I have to do it, then make it universal"

Thanks for the ideas

Cheers, Mick

btw, I use Vidcoder for those who are interested, once you get the settings right its easy to use.

[Gully]

Just adding additional request/question as I have been testing some files with a Dolby Atmos soundtrack and not getting any sound out of them even though my U4 is set to passthrough and my amp can process Atmos. Happy to provide a sample if that helps.

[jpp]

As I found out when I stumbled across this thread, Peter U has made changes to the treatment of the signal passed through to the HDMI connection.

So, just to continue my posts in the main FW thread, re a change noted in the AC3 down-mix since the 27/4/2018 FW, I can provide a bit of info of my experience using the gear listed in my signature.

The solution I found to avoid the surging and hollow sound that I found when using the AC3 down-mix on the T2, was to use the SPDIF output of the T2 and feed this into my DVDO/YSP-3300 Digital Sound Projector. Bypassing the DVDO using only HDMI connections made no difference.

The setup I had prior to this FW was to use the HDMI signal from the T2. This then went into the DVDO and then to the Yamaha via HDMI. No issues and no sound level or any other gremlins - it just worked perfectly.

Using the SPDIF connection, I can now have the AC3 down-mix ON on the T2, and stream this to the DVDO and MAINTAIN the same volume level. With the AC3 down-mix OFF, there is no issue with the new driver other than that the volume level of AC3 signal sources is nearly 6dB down on the normal non- AC3 signals and of course the advantage of being able to produce multi-channel sound.

So, there seems to be a problem with the new decoding process that my Yamaha can't cope with. Fading up and down to hollow/displaced sound is what I experience with it. Not sure if this applies to many people - the Yamaha is about 6 years old by now, and it may be an isolated case. I present this finding here as it may help in debugging (if applicable) the decoder software code that Peter U is kindly doing for us all and in his own time as well.

Regards,

[MrQuade]

I've certainly not noticed any problem with AC3 passthrough on my gear.

When downmixing is turned off, the AC3 data is just passed untouched onto the audio equipment. If you are heading surging volumes then it is most likely to be a fault in the data or in the decoding equipment.

I'd try rolling back the firmware temporarily and re-testing just to make sure your other hardware isn't playing up.

[jpp]

The issue is when down-mixing is ON and sound is being passed along the HDMI connection. When it's OFF, there is no problem of course - signals are just passed through.

[MrQuade]

The issue is when down-mixing is ON. When it's OFF, there is no problem of course - signals are just passed through.

You mentioned in a previous post that you were having problems with downmixing off.
https://www.beyonwiz.com.au/forum/viewt ... 58#p173758

I'd have to do some more checking with it turned on, but in brief testing I hadn't noticed any issues to date.

[jpp]

Yes, sorry, my bad- got a bit muddled up between pass-through ON and Down-mix ON. No wonder no one answered the post . Have corrected that post now.

[MrQuade]

I have switched my T4 over to Dolby Downmix last night and spent some time flicking between AC3 and MPEG services to try to reproduce any audio weirdness, but didn't have any issues.

My T2 is not currently hooked up to do similar tests, but the drivers will be similar.

Can you elaborate on when you experience this problem?
Is it a momentary glitch, or once it happens, it stays buggered?
Does changing services then back fix it temporarily?
Is it the same problem all the time, or does it change? (you mention volume fluctuations and a hollow sound)
Does it happen straight away on service change, or does it need to be left on a service for a while for it to happen?
Does it happen when playing back recordings?
What about non-recording encoded media files?

My spare room TV does have a YSP-2500 which may have similar characteristics to your YSP-3300, so I might be able to test on that too.
In the past, I have experienced "hollow" sounding audio, when the wireless sub-woofer cuts out unexpectedly. This was fixed by wiring the subwoofer to the soundbar with a RCA cable and disabling the wireless functionality. (the tiny bar speakers themselves are definitely no good with low frequencies)

[jpp]

I have switched my T4 over to Dolby Downmix last night and spent some time flicking between AC3 and MPEG services to try to reproduce any audio weirdness, but didn't have any issues.

My T2 is not currently hooked up to do similar tests, but the drivers will be similar.

Can you elaborate on when you experience this problem?
Is it a momentary glitch, or once it happens, it stays buggered?

Stays buggered pretty well from the word go.

Does changing services then back fix it temporarily?

No, always buggered, but can vary from hollow/center chan (i.e.voice) suppressed or sounding hollow

Is it the same problem all the time, or does it change? (you mention volume fluctuations and a hollow sound)

Stays same all the time. However, the sverity does seem to change to some extent depending on the audio content

Does it happen straight away on service change, or does it need to be left on a service for a while for it to happen?

Happens almost straight away - but sometimes takes a second or two to go funny.
As an adjunct here, when using the optical output from the Wiz, and I'm using AC# downmix, I get a delay of some 3/4 sec when skipping, but NOT when I pause and then press play again, either rapidly of with a pause in between. Not sure what to make of that

Does it happen when playing back recordings?

Have to try that yet - will give it a go later tonight

What about non-recording encoded media files?

Not tried any other files other than Wiz recordings

My spare room TV does have a YSP-2500 which may have similar characteristics to your YSP-3300, so I might be able to test on that too.
In the past, I have experienced "hollow" sounding audio, when the wireless sub-woofer cuts out unexpectedly. This was fixed by wiring the subwoofer to the soundbar with a RCA cable and disabling the wireless functionality. (the tiny bar speakers themselves are definitely no good with low frequencies)

My sub-woofer is connected wirelessly, but does not cut out when this issue occurs

[Grumpy_Geoff]

'Preview' is your friend

[prl]

'Preview' is your friend

In cases like that, judicious copy/paste of quote markup in combination with Preview is a better friend

[prl]

'Preview' is your friend

In cases like that, judicious copy/paste of quote markup in combination with Preview is a better friend

Like this:

Code: Select all

[quote=Grumpy_Geoff post_id=173936 time=1545205920 user_id=17814]
'Preview'
[/quote]


which is the button at the bottom of the  text entry box on the "Post a reply" page.

[quote=Grumpy_Geoff post_id=173936 time=1545205920 user_id=17814]
is your friend
[/quote]


I agree, but I think there are better friends in these circumstances.

[quote=Grumpy_Geoff post_id=173936 time=1545205920 user_id=17814]
:lol:
[/quote]

[quote=Grumpy_Geoff post_id=173936 time=1545205920 user_id=17814]
:lol:
[/quote]


Emoticons can be entered from the emoticon menu at the right-hand side of the text entry box on the  "Post a reply" page.

Which yields:

'Preview'

which is the button at the bottom of the text entry box on the "Post a reply" page.

is your friend

I agree, but I think there are better friends in these circumstances.

Emoticons can be entered from the emoticon menu at the right-hand side of the text entry box on the "Post a reply" page.

[jpp]

Thanks gentlemen,

I am aware of the niceties of using quotes, but.... as I was replying to only one author, what is wrong with the simple way I chose to do it? I'm pretty sure that it doesn't or hasn't lost it's clarity which is after all what we're all about here isn't it .

[Grumpy_Geoff]

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't or hasn't lost it's clarity which is after all what we're all about here isn't it .

As soon as I saw that wall of all-quoted-text, I gave up.
But as you said, it wasn't intended for me, so "up to you" for the style.

[Gully]

I am aware of the niceties of using quotes, but.... as I was replying to only one author, what is wrong with the simple way I chose to do it? I'm pretty sure that it doesn't or hasn't lost it's clarity which is after all what we're all about here isn't it .

Cannot speak for the person you were replying to but it definitely lost clarity for me. It made it harder to see which parts were quotes and which parts were your responses.

And seeing as this is a forum, that person isn't going to be the only one reading your response, and as is often the case, not the only one responding with help.

[jpp]

Does it happen when playing back recordings?

Made a recording of Chan 9HD, 5 min with AC3 down-mix OFF, followed by a 5 min session with it ON.

Results:

• There is no difference between watching/listening to the whole recording LIVE or from the recording

• The salient and most noticeable corruption is from balanced stereo sources when the sound almost completely disappears, leaving just the left and right channels to come through if the "center" is totally balanced.

• For example, a news broadcast with just the reader will be almost inaudible and become "hollow" when the reader turns his/her head to the side.

• During ads, where sound moves around quite a lot, i.e.flows between left and right with center coming and going, you get quite a bit of surging.

Hope that this will shine some light on the problem.

Regards.

[MrQuade]

You haven't installed any plugins that night affect audio on the T2 by any chance?

The new audio driver will downmix multichannel sources to multichannel PCM when it detects an audio sink which advertises support for it.

It sounds like your soundbar is receiving the multichannel audio but only tendering the stereo components.

Can you describe exactly how your equipment is hooked up? Your T2 isn't running thorough a TV before going to the soundbar or something is it?
Is the entire audio chain via HDMI, or is there any optical/coax in the mix?

[peteru]

Download a channel test file to get a better idea of what may be going on.

[gtwundke]

Made a recording of Chan 9HD, 5 min with AC3 down-mix OFF, followed by a 5 min session with it ON.

Results:

• There is no difference between watching/listening to the whole recording LIVE or from the recording

• The salient and most noticeable corruption is from balanced stereo sources when the sound almost completely disappears, leaving just the left and right channels to come through if the "center" is totally balanced.

• For example, a news broadcast with just the reader will be almost inaudible and become "hollow" when the reader turns his/her head to the side.

• During ads, where sound moves around quite a lot, i.e.flows between left and right with center coming and going, you get quite a bit of surging.

This all sounds a bit like a phase issue (one side is out of phase with the other, effectively cancelling out all of the common bits). Sounds like the centre channel is simply downmixing from stereo to mono, but with one channel out of phase you're getting these weird effects.

Tim.

[MrQuade]

This all sounds a bit like a phase issue (one side is out of phase with the other, effectively cancelling out all of the common bits). Sounds like the centre channel is simply downmixing from stereo to mono, but with one channel out of phase you're getting these weird effects.

Interesting idea, but not very likely in this specific case.
If there was a phase issue you would hear it regardless of the downmix setting.

Also, since the audio is going to a sound bar, it doesn't make sense for it to be a physical connection phase issue.

Mind you, since you bring up the topic of interference, you could possibly get cancelling eaves if the audio was somehow coming out of the TV speakers at the same time as the sound bar. Though I think this is also unlikely.

Far more likely to just be missing channels due to the multi channel PCM that was introduced in the new firmware.

We shall await further testing and feedback though

[jpp]

You haven't installed any plugins that night affect audio on the T2 by any chance?

No.

The new audio driver will downmix multichannel sources to multichannel PCM when it detects an audio sink which advertises support for it.

Looks like that's working - see below.

It sounds like your soundbar is receiving the multichannel audio but only tendering the stereo components.

Can you describe exactly how your equipment is hooked up? Your T2 isn't running thorough a TV before going to the soundbar or something is it?

Yes, and this is the problem I have discovered.

Long story here: I have programmed the Logitec 850 on startup of this activity to switch my Yamaha to select HDMI 1 which is connected to the output of the DVDO.

But as soon as the TV is powered up, it force switches the Yamaha over to its TV input which is connected via Opto to the TV. I then have to manually switch the Yamaha back to HDMI 1, and once done, it stays there - it's won the battle of who is in control .

So, the audio signal chain is as follows:

T2 > DVDO via HDMI > Yamaha via HDMI > TV via HDMI >back to Yamaha via Opto.

If then I switch the Yamaha back to HDMI 1 (the DVDO HDMI output signal), then the Yamaha displays the Blue light, indicating a PCM signal. Audio is then perfect including the level of the sound .

The setup as it is now is convenient because when the TV is switched on by itself, the Yamaha is automatically switched ON via a separate HDMI connection from the TV.

I obviously need to re-configure this setup so that the TV does not cause the Yamaha to jump to the Opto input for it's audio signal.

Is the entire audio chain via HDMI, or is there any optical/coax in the mix?

Ok, so here you have it - a very convoluted mainly HDMI signal path that also involved an Opto audio link in its path.

Sorry for all the hullabaloo - but it's been an interesting journey.

[MrQuade]

Good stuff

The setup as it is now is convenient because when the TV is switched on by itself, the Yamaha is automatically switched ON via a separate HDMI connection from the TV.

I'll throw in some unsolicited advice that I usually add in regards to Logitech remote controls, though I am sure you are already aware. When you introduce a Harmony into a system, then it is best to just never touch the old remotes again and turn off CEC. If you have any other sources of control, then it will just serve to confuse the Harmony's internal state machine, and you will end up with these weird little glitches where a source input might automatically get redirected (as you are seeing).

Of course everyone's specific requirements are different, so I am hoping you can find a good compromise or workaround

[prl]

... turn off CEC ...

I had to do that on my Sony HT because the CEC and the Harmony were disputing who was in control, and the Harmony was losing

[Gully]

... turn off CEC ...

I had to do that on my Sony HT because the CEC and the Harmony were disputing who was in control, and the Harmony was losing

The battle of wills that is CEC!

Interestingly enough, I used to have the problem with my Samsung TV and Samsung Blu-Ray taking precedence when I was switching back to the Beyonwiz but having recently replaced both with Sony versions they all seem to be playing nicely together.