Blu-Ray or T4?

[tezza007]

I was thinking of getting a Blu-Ray player to play blu-ray mkv's
Would I get better sound and picture? [than the T4] Or is it a waste of money?
I have a 4k TV and 7.2 surround sound system and would like to get the most out of them
Some of the players I've looked at have Wi-Fi, LAN, USB/HDD playback, 4k upscaling. Is there anything in particular I should be looking at?
Thanks in advance

[MrQuade]

Most of my media playing duties are taken care of by a HTPC running Kodi on Windows 10.

I can control this unit using IR from my Harmony, so it all works seamlessly with the rest of my components.

I have a Plex server installed, and occasionally use the client on my HTPC and some other devices, but nowhere near as much as Kodi.

I plan to replace this ageing HTPC with the upcoming generation of NUC when they are available. The current HTPC can play HEVC content, but it does begin to struggle. The current generation of NUC uses Intel Skylake processors, which lack 10bit deep colour HEVC hardware acceleration capabilities (which will be present in this year's updated generation of Bluray). I am waiting for a NUC based on Kaby Lake before taking that leap, as they will apparently have a hardware based 10bit HEVC codec.

Setting one up is not terribly complex, but it is certainly not as easy as an off-the-shelf consumer media player.

[tezza007]

uhuh..... but not what I'm looking for

[MrQuade]

uhuh..... but not what I'm looking for

In what way? It will do the job you described in the first post. Or do you just want to go off-the-shelf?

[netmask]

What do you mean by "I was thinking of getting a Blu-Ray player to play blu-ray mkv's " MKV's are a file container and depending on how or who encoded them may or may not have surround sound. The resolution could be all over the place as well.

[tezza007]

The mkv's i use are usually 20 to 40gb with great picture and sound

MrQuade, yes I'm thinking off the shelf and I think they'd be a lot cheaper than your suggestion

[peteru]

What's wrong with using a T4 on those files?

[tezza007]

I think I can get better sound and picture quality from a Blu-ray player. The T4 also won't play some of them

[peteru]

If they are downloaded MKVs, then the quality should be about the same. In general, Blu-ray players have much worse MKV playback compatibility than the T-Series.

If you are going to use purchased Blu-ray discs, then it makes sense to get a Blu-ray player to handle the optical media. Not for MKVs.

[tezza007]

Available downloadable mkv's vary wildly in quality. I go for as close to full quality as possible. I'll take some to the store and make sure they're playable

[prl]

Interesting stats/experimental design problem: what's the rate of failure to play Blu-Ray MKV RIPs on the T4, and given that, what's the minimum number of test recordings you'd need to try on the candidate Blu-Ray player to be 95% confident (p < 0.05) that the Blu-Ray player does a better job?

[peteru]

The fact that the T4 software is constantly updated makes any such comparison a moving target. In general, the T4 capabilities tend to improve over time.

[raymondjpg]

I was thinking of getting a Blu-Ray player to play blu-ray mkv's
Would I get better sound and picture? [than the T4] Or is it a waste of money?
I have a 4k TV and 7.2 surround sound system and would like to get the most out of them
Some of the players I've looked at have Wi-Fi, LAN, USB/HDD playback, 4k upscaling. Is there anything in particular I should be looking at?
Thanks in advance

I gave up on my Blu-ray player three years ago. I was getting a marginal improvement in video quality for m2ts files of about 20-30 GB in size over mkv rips of 2-5 GB in size, with a great deal more fuss and bother with the Blu-ray player. The bother was mainly with seek and resume where stopped, but the players may well have improved since then.

In my opinion the marginal improvement in video quality with Blu-ray disks was not worth it. To my ear there is no sound quality difference between what you get from a Blu-ray disk and what you hear from an AC3 or DTS rip. If you are really serious about quality you could just rip the m2ts and watch that uncompressed. Clown BD will make one of those for you.

I wouldn't know if 4k upscaling conferred any benefits, but my guess would be zip. I don't see how upscaling 1920x1080 would fill any more pixels with any more information on a 4k monitor than would not upscaling.

Now while the T4 has what looks to me like a pretty good media player, I doubt that it could compare to video quality from a madVR capable media player with display rate switching to match frame rate. My choice of mkvs over Blu-ray disks has been predicated on a preference for an HTPC with MPC-HC.

[tezza007]

I still have a few mkv's that the T4 won't play without conversion [there's been plenty more in the past]. If the player can play them I'll be happy. It's not like it's a big expense as I'm looking at the Sony BDPS6500 Ultra HD 3D Blu-Ray Disc Player which JB Hi-Fi have for $168 and I can probably get it for less

[raymondjpg]

I still have a few mkv's that the T4 won't play without conversion [there's been plenty more in the past]. If the player can play them I'll be happy. It's not like it's a big expense as I'm looking at the Sony BDPS6500 Ultra HD 3D Blu-Ray Disc Player which JB Hi-Fi have for $168 and I can probably get it for less

I looked at the specs of the Sony and if what you are after is its media playback as well as Blu-ray capability then it looks like an inexpensive investment. However I couldn't say if its media playback capability was any better than the T4.

[netmask]

Also remember all Blu ray players have Cinavia detection on them - so if it is on the original disc it will be on any rip you have especially if you burn it to disc. Normally the media player section doesn't detect but SONY are notorious for their 'road blocks' so check... No one has successfully defeated Cinevia without ruining the audio and as it is an audio watermark gets transferred no matter what you do. Blissfully Beyonwiz is currently immune to all this nonsense.

[tezza007]

Yep, aware of Cinavia

[peteru]

while the T4 has what looks to me like a pretty good media player, I doubt that it could compare to video quality from a madVR capable media player with display rate switching to match frame rate.

Detailed information on madVR is not available, but from what I can see, the hardware in the T4 is capable of all the listed features and more, it just uses dedicated hardware blocks to do it, rather than a GPU.

The T4 hardware can and does things that madVR probably can not do, like use the intermediate MPEG decoder information to improve picture quality in post processing and during enhanced motion adaptive de-interlacing.

The T4 already has a very flexible frame rate control, which allows for both passthrough and many conversions.

[MrQuade]

That Sony player does not list HEVC decoding capability let alone the 10 bit variant for the upcoming Blu-ray standard. I can see that it can upscale to 4k but it doesn't indicate if it can play native 4k content. It does appear to be able to bitstream multichannel HD audio formats which is good though.

For me, if it can't do HEVC, then it is a deal breaker as far as a dedicated media player goes. You would be better served waiting until the new big name Bluray players are released, or find something from a smaller manufacture that is up to date with the latest standards. HEVC will only become more common.

The good thing about a big name media player is the branded streaming service support (Netflix etc). It'd be nice to have a polished interface to those services and the ability to pay back all types of local media. If you can locate such a unicorn, let me know .

[raymondjpg]

Detailed information on madVR is not available...

This may help https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/MadVR_Expert_Guide

The T4 hardware can and does things that madVR probably can not do, like use the intermediate MPEG decoder information to improve picture quality in post processing and during enhanced motion adaptive de-interlacing.

I couldn't say but is it still clear to you that "the intermediate MPEG decoder" does what madVR probably cannot do?

The T4 already has a very flexible frame rate control, which allows for both passthrough and many conversions.

It is matching monitor refresh rate with frame rate, not passthrough and conversions, that I was referring to.

[MrQuade]

The T4 already has a very flexible frame rate control, which allows for both passthrough and many conversions.

It is matching monitor refresh rate with frame rate, not passthrough and conversions, that I was referring to.

I think that "passthrough" and "matching monitor refresh rate with frame rate" mean the same thing.

[tezza007]

4k players will be arriving later this year [this month in the US] but will be expensive. Maybe next year they'll be affordable and I'll pass this one [if I get it] off to the ex. It's a cheap interim fix

[peteru]

Detailed information on madVR is not available...

This may help https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/MadVR_Expert_Guide

It's still sketchy, but from what I see, the madVR functionality is a very small subset of what the T4 hardware does. Most of the things that madVR seems to have appear to be simpler versions of features implemented by Broadcom. Of course, being all implemented as software algorithms on the GPU, madVR can evolve over time, so that is clearly an advantage.

The T4 hardware can and does things that madVR probably can not do, like use the intermediate MPEG decoder information to improve picture quality in post processing and during enhanced motion adaptive de-interlacing.

I couldn't say but is it still clear to you that "the intermediate MPEG decoder" does what madVR probably cannot do?

Yep, very clear now. The T4 hardware certainly has a big advantage there. The T4 hardware has the means to significantly improve the picture quality of low bitrate content, such as IPTV and streaming services, or in the case of FTA all the low bitrate channels.

The T4 already has a very flexible frame rate control, which allows for both passthrough and many conversions.

It is matching monitor refresh rate with frame rate, not passthrough and conversions, that I was referring to.

You are talking about the same thing.

[raymondjpg]

Yep, very clear now. The T4 hardware certainly has a big advantage there. The T4 hardware has the means to significantly improve the picture quality of low bitrate content, such as IPTV and streaming services, or in the case of FTA all the low bitrate channels.

OK, madVR is not designed to improve the viewability of poor quality video. Indeed I have the various video "enhancements" of Intel HD Graphics, and motion smoothing in madVR and the TV monitor all disabled. I live with the quality of all the low bitrate FTA channels on the premise that a silk purse cannot be made out of a sow's ear. Also, where motion smoothing is concerned I would rather put up with the original than the "soap opera" effect. Some see otherwise.

The T4 already has a very flexible frame rate control, which allows for both passthrough and many conversions.

It is matching monitor refresh rate with frame rate, not passthrough and conversions, that I was referring to.

You are talking about the same thing.

madVR (as can MPC-HC) can cause the video monitor to switch refresh rate to match the framerate of the source video. Is that what frame rate control does?

[MrQuade]

madVR (as can MPC-HC) can cause the video monitor to switch refresh rate to match the framerate of the source video. Is that what frame rate control does?

Yes. Look under the T series AV settings where you set the resolution of your display. There is a very comprehensive set of settings that will allow you to output most source resolutions/framerates at whatever resolution and framerate that you want.

For example, mine is set to output all 25/50Hz material at 1080p50 (so there is no mode switching when flicking through live TV services), all 30/60 material at 1080p60, and all 24Hz material at 1080p24. Obviously, I am not passing through ALL framerates there, but a frame double is a trivial conversion that will have no affect on the frame cadence.

[raymondjpg]

Yes. Look under the T series AV settings where you set the resolution of your display. There is a very comprehensive set of settings that will allow you to output most source resolutions/framerates at whatever resolution and framerate that you want.

I found it eventually, thank you, selecting multi screen resolution. That is certainly a feature worth implementing. Now the proof of the pudding would be a side-by-side comparison of video quality from the T series with a madVR enabled media player. Unfortunately I am not set up that way. My guess is that if there are differences to be seen they would only show up in high bitrate HD video. Notwithstanding your penchant for HEVC I'd put my money on AVC for now. Also, I see that there are various video "enhancements" possible with the T series, the benefits of which I would venture to suggest are debatable. Not that I am suggesting they aren't worthwhile for those people who seem to favour them.