Alternatives to T4 remote

michal · Post by **michal** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:21

My main problem with the T4 remote is the field of view and I don't know if it's the fault of the remote or the receiver..

What alternatives are there?

The Harmony remotes all seem severely flawed. Does the Harmony Hub even work in tandem with the Harmony Ultimate One? The remotes that clearly do might as well not have coloured buttons as far as someone with less than perfect vision (my father) is concerned.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:41

As discussed at Whirlpool. The T3 remote may serve you better.

Button layout is better, and you can map the Volume and channel buttons to other devices (such as your Sonos) and keep the rest of the buttons for controlling the T4.

I don't think the One can be added to a hub, but you have said that the One is already in use on the other TV setup in the house. Logitech have release a matrix of which remotes can be used with the hubs.

michal wrote:The Harmony remotes all seem severely flawed.

I'm really not sure why you think that they are "severely" flawed. The key layout may not be ideal for you, but the remotes (for the most part) work nicely.

You could always get the Harmony Ultimate or Elite and paint the thing to make the colour keys more prominent for you father.

michal · Post by **michal** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 13:07

The most annoying thing about getting the T3 remote is that I would have ordered the T3 remote with the T4 if I had any inkling about this. Indeed I specifically searched for any accessories I might want to order at the time. I presume that would have saved me on shipping.

The flaw of the hub capable Harmony remotes is that the coloured buttons could not be any less coloured unless they were completely black. If my father were to look at them he wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

The Harmony Ultimate One is not the remote I have and DOES have coloured buttons which are more easily seen. I have the original Harmony One without coloured buttons in the home theatre setup.

EDIT: Oh, and when you say you can program the volume independently, do you mean within the STB mode of the remote? And is the IR transmitter on the T3 remote more powerful and with a wider beam to solve the main problem with the T4 remote?

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 13:21

michal wrote: The most annoying thing about getting the T3 remote is that I would have ordered the T3 remote with the T4 if I had any inkling about this.

I didn't whinge hard enough about the T4 remote on Whirpool clearly

.

michal wrote:If my father were to look at them he wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

You can always put some stickers or some other colour blobs on the remote to help him out. I get what you are saying in that it is inconvenient in your situation, but flaw is a bit harsh.

: harmony-ultimate-one.png (31.22 KiB) Viewed 7856 times

There is lots of space below the colour buttons for some helpful guides for your dad.

michal wrote: EDIT: Oh, and when you say you can program the volume independently, do you mean within the STB mode of the remote?

Yes, on the T3 remote, you can have the volume keys set to the Sonos codes while you are in STB mode. It is detailed in the end of the T3 manual that you can download from the Beyonwiz main website. prl spoke about this on Whirpool as well when he corrected me that this feature was not available on the T4 or T2 remote, only T3.

michal wrote: And is the IR transmitter on the T3 remote more powerful and with a wider beam to solve the main problem with the T4 remote?

The T3 remote does not improve the reception issue. The issue is more to do with the limited receive ability of the T4 due to thick front plastic and recessed IR receiver. The solution there is some kind of IR blaster that is positioned optimally (such as the Harmony Hubs, but also any number of other IR repeaters could be used).

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 14:01

I also had been thinking about suggesting a ir repeater. The t4 it receiver would need to be physically shielded to prevent double receiving but they generally have much wider receiver range and can be located adjacent to other devices.

NedIS · Post by **NedIS** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 15:02

If your father has network wifi connections to the T4 he could use a cheap table/mobile phone to control it with the Wizos app!

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 15:24

NedIS wrote:If your father has network wifi connections to the T4 he could use a cheap table/mobile phone to control it with the Wizos app!

He still has a volume control problem with that solution.

However, the Harmony hubs also have a similar phone/tablet app which may or may not appeal.

michal · Post by **michal** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 18:36

I'm researching repeaters but having trouble finding something compact and slim.

My father still uses a Nokia 6210 classic phone and has the original iPad 2 which is now almost non responsive with iOS9.. Not to mention it's not a practical remote for holding casually in one hand (it's SOO heavy compared to current iPads).

Anyone have experience with any IR repeaters? I just discovered I have a Harmony 785 (or something like that) in the garage that I didn't even remember I had.. No battery though.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 18:48

michal wrote:... I just discovered I have a Harmony 785 (or something like that) in the garage that I didn't even remember I had.. No battery though.

We use a Harmony 785 with our in-use T4. It's not significantly better (or worse) with respect to the IR receiver's field of view problems.

It is, though, a nice way to control all the bits and pieces in our A/V setup.

michal · Post by **michal** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 19:04

There is only one good thing about the T4 remote as far as I'm concerned.. The feel of the buttons.

Is it possible to mod the T4 to push the IR receiver forwards a bit? Seems like it's recessed further than it needs to be..

The same seems true of the remote but in my experience I think it's the power of the transmitter that matters more as some similar remotes I have are capable of bouncing the signal off the wall even if pointed at the opposite direction of the device being controlled.. Much like an air conditioner remote.

I'll see if I can get a cheap battery for the 785 to see if it's enough of an improvement.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 19:15

michal wrote:... The same seems true of the remote but in my experience I think it's the power of the transmitter that matters more as some similar remotes I have are capable of bouncing the signal off the wall even if pointed at the opposite direction of the device being controlled.. Much like an air conditioner remote. ...

Our Harmony can do that sort of thing with all the devices in our A/V setup except the T4. It's the T4, not the remote.

michal · Post by **michal** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 08:19

All the IR extenders that I'm finding on the internet seem like either massive overkill or dodgy.

There doesn't seem to be anything for one device that looks like it just works for everyone :/

Seems like an issue Beyonwiz should address in an update of the unit.

michal · Post by **michal** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 17:23

Thinking of trying this:

http://www.amazon.com/Sewell-Direct-SW- ... 00WN9XB48/

Any opinions?

Regards,
Michal

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 20:54

My thought is that modification of the front panel on the T4 will be a lot more effective and cheaper. After all, the front panel design is the main reason for the poor sensitivity, so it makes sense to fix the problem at the source, rather than come up with complex workarounds.

If you are handy, it's not that hard to bring the sensor closer to the front bit of plastic, especially if you are not scared by a soldering iron.

I also posted some information on how I modified the plastic to make it more translucent.

Of course, another option would be drilling a little hole in the front panel plastic, right in front of the sensor and then inserting a short length of clear plastic rod to act as a light guide. That would be probably even more effective, although not as neat.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 21:17

This is what I bought that does the trick for me.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IR-Extender- ... 1e7edbb598

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:31

peteru wrote:My thought is that modification of the front panel on the T4 will be a lot more effective and cheaper. After all, the front panel design is the main reason for the poor sensitivity, so it makes sense to fix the problem at the source, rather than come up with complex workarounds.

If you are handy, it's not that hard to bring the sensor closer to the front bit of plastic, especially if you are not scared by a soldering iron.

Nope nope nope.... I just spent 90 minutes trying to mod it to work even remotely (pardon the pun) acceptably and still no go.. The plastic is now significantly thinner and the IR sensor is right up to the plastic.. Has made ZERO perceptible difference.

I still have what feels like about 5 degrees of FOV for the remote. I can be pointing the remote almost directly at the unit and it still doesn't register just as before. This is probably 90% of the problem with this unit as it makes any macro based remote totally useless since it will miss most or all of the signals anyway.

Does anyone know the model or type of the IR sensor? I'm now considering just removing it and wiring it up to an external sensor I can place anywhere.. Preferably a much better performance sensor.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:42

michal wrote:
peteru wrote:My thought is that modification of the front panel on the T4 will be a lot more effective and cheaper. After all, the front panel design is the main reason for the poor sensitivity, so it makes sense to fix the problem at the source, rather than come up with complex workarounds.

If you are handy, it's not that hard to bring the sensor closer to the front bit of plastic, especially if you are not scared by a soldering iron.
Nope nope nope.... I just spent 90 minutes trying to mod it to work even remotely (pardon the pun) acceptably and still no go.. The plastic is now significantly thinner and the IR sensor is right up to the plastic.. Has made ZERO perceptible difference.

I still have what feels like about 5 degrees of FOV for the remote. I can be pointing the remote almost directly at the unit and it still doesn't register just as before. This is probably 90% of the problem with this unit as it makes any macro based remote totally useless since it will miss most or all of the signals anyway.

Does anyone know the model or type of the IR sensor? I'm now considering just removing it and wiring it up to an external sensor I can place anywhere.. Preferably a much better performance sensor.

What about something like the device gully linked to. You can mount the transmitter directly to the t4 sensor and then have the receiver anywhere.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:49

simoncasey wrote: What about something like the device gully linked to. You can mount the transmitter directly to the t4 sensor and then have the receiver anywhere.

I plan on buying a hundred dollars worth of different extenders in the hope that one will be suitable... Nothing ever works properly so I'm not going to bother trying just one :/

At this stage I would almost prefer modifying the unit with a hammer.. or an axe.. It along with my father have caused me to develop Tourettes syndrome.

Anyone want to swap parents?

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 15:51

I've been trying for the last hour to create an activity on the Harmony 785 I found to Watch TV. It seems impossible though I know I've done it (albeit on a simpler system) before.

I've had to restart about a dozen times as I reach roadblocks but the latest one is causing me a lot of trouble.. Switching to Input4 on the Pioneer PDP-507XDA seems all but impossible. It's not a selectable input in activities or on the remote but it IS in the adjust inputs menu for the device itself.

Beyonwiz T4? More like BeyondBluewiz T4.

This is another reason I hate the Harmony remotes. The complexity with multiple devices is exponential.

Ironically the only input ever used will be Input4, but that doesn't mean my parents won't find a way to switch it to the digital tuner.

EDIT: I give up.. This appears to be LITERALLY impossible. I must have imagined that I had gotten it working in the past.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 16:57

michal wrote:... EDIT: I give up.. This appears to be LITERALLY impossible. I must have imagined that I had gotten it working in the past.

I have a setup with a T4, DP-Lite and DP-P2 going into a HDMI switch, the output of the HDMI switch going into the single HDMI input on our TV, and the analog sound coming from the TV into an AM/FM receiver. The setup also used to have a DVD player with composite video going to the TV and analog audio going to the AM/FM receiver until th\e DVD player died.

Our Harmony 785 manages/managed the activities of watching TV using each or the PVRS, watching DVDs, listening to CDs and listening to the radio without problems other than the horrible IR field of view of the T4.

So, definitely not impossible, though I will agree that the Logitech Harmony Remote Software has one of the worst UIs that I've ever had the misfortune to deal with.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 17:02

I cannot find a way of adding/enabling the discrete input controls for the Pioneer PDP-507XDA to the input menu.

The moist frustrating thing is that they are already in the database when you try to learn IR commands under the optional section., but trying to add them once you get to the input source is impossible since they never pop up in the remote control dropdown menu.

I'm sure there is a way to add them because I could swear that I've done it before... I just haven't been able to figure it out after 2 hours of stuffing around with the software.

My setup includes setting 2 inputs for the T4. Input4 on the TV and Input2 on the HDMI AV switch. I haven't even gotten to the inevitable pain of the second input.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 17:10

I have multiple inputs on my TV, the HDMI switch and the AM/FM receiver. They all showed up as they should when I made the activities, so I don't really have any suggestions for how your TV might be set up.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 17:11

It's been a while since I used the old style software for the 785, but I recall it being straightforward to customise the buttons and screen for each activity.

Where are you getting stuck? If you have all the discrete codes for all the inputs then the hard work should be done already.

And what is the idea behind setting 2 inputs for the T4?

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 17:14

MrQuade wrote:It's been a while since I used the old style software for the 785, but I recall it being straightforward to customise the buttons and screen for each activity.

Where are you getting stuck? If you have all the discrete codes for all the inputs then the hard work should be done already.

And what is the idea behind setting 2 inputs for the T4?

The only available input options for the TV in the activity adding wizard are TV and Radio. All the inputs are listed in the Learn IR section of the device under optional but NONE of them are available when configuring activities. And NONE of them are available as a custom remote button from the dropdown if you add you're own input.

The idea is that the TV goes through a HDMI switch and is connected to input 2. So the T4 is on input 2 of the HDMI switch and Input4 of the TV. No way around this unless I give up on connecting any other devices to the TV besides the T4. That's not an option.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 17:26

It sounds like you don't have the T4 and HDMI switch added as part of the activity perhaps?

I found my 785 setup software so I gave it a go. I am using v 7,7.0.

I added the PDP-507XDA as a device, and chose to add a new Activity. I used the Beyonwiz DP-S1 as a dummy PVR and my Denon Receiver as a substitute for the HDMI switch.

I chose to create a new "Watch TV" activity and then chose to set it up myself when the Wiazard asked.

I then chose Input 4 on the TV, and the "PVR" input on my receiver. The activity is now set up.

When I now choose to customise buttons, I can create a new screen item and all of the "TV2" device inputs are available to add as commands.

Are you following the same procedure?

Edit:
I just thought. You may need to go in after the Wizard has completed and add the HDMI switch to the Activity manually. It may not have been included in the wizard as it is not a video input/output or sound device.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 17:33

This is my "watch TV using the T4" setup for our 785:

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:03

MrQuade wrote:I then chose Input 4 on the TV, and the "PVR" input on my receiver. The activity is now set up.

I don't have an Input4 to choose. Nor is it a remote button available in the dropdown :/

I haven't even gotten to the HDMI switch part of the settings yet.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:14

When I get to the source input options this is what I get:

: screenshot_80.png (19.26 KiB) Viewed 7963 times

Then I choose method 2 and get this:

If I attempt to change the existing inputs or add a new one I get this:

This is despite the device input menu showing the following if I try to adjust inputs:

With these items shown in the menu:

So I'm about out of ideas.. And even if I do set this up then if the main problem is the crappy IR receiver in the T4 then it still won't solve my problems :/

EDIT: I've been juggling the attachments as the attachment/inline image functions here are a little insane and all over the place for some reason..

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:19

Its asking what input your Bewyonwiz should be set to. The Beyonwiz doesn't have an input. Set it to "Source Input is missing".

prl · Post by **prl** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:20

Nothing bad happens, whether you choose TV or Radio. The Harmony will send a TV or RADIO button-press depending on the setting, which means you start off in the TV or RADIO bouquet selection screen. This is mildly annoying, but initially just leave it as TV until you have everything else set up.

I got it to avoid sending the TV or RADIO press by deleting the TV and RADIO entries in Devices>Beyonwiz T4>Settings> Adjust inputs, and adding one called None. Works quite nicely.

But just leave it at TV for now and get the system set up. You can always fine-tune later.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:36

prl wrote: I got it to avoid sending the TV or RADIO press by deleting the TV and RADIO entries in Devices>Beyonwiz T4>Settings> Adjust inputs, and adding one called None. Works quite nicely.

Ahh oops, yes do that. Ignore me. The newer software is a tad different and allows you to set a "I don't set an input" option. I was wondering why that was missing

.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:48

michal wrote:I've been trying for the last hour to create an activity on the Harmony 785 I found to Watch TV. It seems impossible though I know I've done it (albeit on a simpler system) before.

I've had to restart about a dozen times as I reach roadblocks but the latest one is causing me a lot of trouble.. Switching to Input4 on the Pioneer PDP-507XDA seems all but impossible. It's not a selectable input in activities or on the remote but it IS in the adjust inputs menu for the device itself.

Beyonwiz T4? More like BeyondBluewiz T4.

This is another reason I hate the Harmony remotes. The complexity with multiple devices is exponential.

Ironically the only input ever used will be Input4, but that doesn't mean my parents won't find a way to switch it to the digital tuner.

EDIT: I give up.. This appears to be LITERALLY impossible. I must have imagined that I had gotten it working in the past.

If you google
Pioneer input4 harmony
You get quite a few links to similar problems. Without knowing what your problem is, some suggestions include:
Inserting a power on delay - if the problem is it is not switching to the right input at the start (doesn't seem to be your problem)
Using the original pioneer remote to programme in a command and use that in the function
If you can access the menu to change input, programme the sequence of events into one of the lcd buttons as a r ache function

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:54

simoncasey wrote: You get quite a few links to similar problems. Without knowing what your problem is, some suggestions include:

He's having a problem with the configuration, not the operation of the remote. Check the posts after the one you responded to.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 18:59

MrQuade wrote:
simoncasey wrote: You get quite a few links to similar problems. Without knowing what your problem is, some suggestions include:
He's having a problem with the configuration, not the operation of the remote. Check the posts after the one you responded to.

That's weird, I could only see the posts up to the one I responded to and one of prls.
Anyway, seems like it's going somewhere.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 19:08

This is all so intuitive that I think I will drink myself to death.

The TV/Radio thing has nothing to do with bouquets right?

Being as pedantic as I am I may never have gotten past that point. Thank you VERY much for the help.

This is what I have now.. I had to add the HDMI switch at the end, but the order in this case probably doesn't really matter. Interesting Input automatically set for the Sonos.. Wonder if it will all work.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 19:16

michal wrote:The TV/Radio thing has nothing to do with bouquets right?

They correspond to the TV and Radio buttons on the T4 remote.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 07:44

I'd like too point out something that I was COMPLETELY led astray with regards to.

The Harmony remote works even when I point it at my head.
The T4 has NO issues with it's receiver so I wasted my time modding it.
It's the crappy T4 remote that is 100% at fault!!!

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 08:24

The harmony remote is much stronger than normal TV remotes. I have found the same improvement with a 785 over all of my remotes.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 08:30

I did discover why I stopped using the 785 though. The volume buttons get stuck a lot of the time.

Shoddy quality buttons. Probably due to their silly irregular shapes.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 08:34

michal wrote:I did discover why I stopped using the 785 though. The volume buttons get stuck a lot of the time.

Shoddy quality buttons. Probably due to their silly irregular shapes.

Yes. I had that same problem.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:04

I had a look at the new Harmony Elite but the price is completely insane. I mean $549.95!?

It's the only one with a somewhat reasonable interface :/ The Ultimate One has the transport controls above the LCD which is nuts.

Honestly the Smart Control is my favourite, but it provides no real way of choosing activities or switching between various devices.

Has anyone seen the Elite at a more reasonable price? Now I'm regretting not taking up Logitech on their 30% off earlier this week. Had I known it was the remote and not the receiver on the T4 I probably would have done so. That's the 2nd time in the last month or so that I've missed out on a 30% discount that could have made my life a lot easier. First Dick Smith and now Logitech.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:39

The retail price of the Harmony Ultimate is around the same as the Elite, but you can pick up a new Ultimate for $300 delivered on Ebay.

Once the Elite has been out in the market for a couple of months, it should also appear on Ebay for a similar price as well I would say.

simoncasey · Post by **simoncasey** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:53

michal wrote:I had a look at the new Harmony Elite but the price is completely insane. I mean $549.95!?

It's the only one with a somewhat reasonable interface :/ The Ultimate One has the transport controls above the LCD which is nuts.

Honestly the Smart Control is my favourite, but it provides no real way of choosing activities or switching between various devices.

Has anyone seen the Elite at a more reasonable price? Now I'm regretting not taking up Logitech on their 30% off earlier this week. Had I known it was the remote and not the receiver on the T4 I probably would have done so. That's the 2nd time in the last month or so that I've missed out on a 30% discount that could have made my life a lot easier. First Dick Smith and now Logitech.

Two comments on the above:
1. I have a harmony smart control and it has some really good features compared to a normal remote. It has 3 activity buttons each of which can be configured for a different activity on short or long press so it can do 6 activities. You can't access a device menu on the remote so you have to use a mobile device to do that but you have to have a mobile device to set it up anyway.
It has a built in ir transmitter extender so it will also resolve the problems with the T4 ir receiver.
2 your problem is not with the t4 remote but with the receiver. The fact that a 785 works ok is because it is much stronger and wider transmitter. The fact that you have to be within 5% of direct focus on the receiver indicates that it is the receiver where most of the issue is.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:16

simoncasey wrote:... The fact that you have to be within 5% of direct focus on the receiver indicates that it is the receiver where most of the issue is.

This.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:52

That's not entirely true because the IR sensor indicator light on the Sonos Playbar also indicates that the IR transmitter has a SUPER narrow range and none of the other remotes that we used prior to getting the T4 had a problem (i.e. the Pioneer TV remote).

Clearly it's a combination of of crappy transmitter AND crappy receiver if anything, but a better transmitter EASILY makes up for any shortfalls with the receiver.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:57

simoncasey wrote:I have a harmony smart control and it has some really good features compared to a normal remote. It has 3 activity buttons each of which can be configured for a different activity on short or long press so it can do 6 activities. You can't access a device menu on the remote so you have to use a mobile device to do that but you have to have a mobile device to set it up anyway.

That sounds like something that would be perfectly acceptable for me.. But any father is the primary user of this and he still struggles with double clicking on a computer or dragging an icon. Short and long button presses are something he wouldn't be able to handle. In fact a few times he's told me the T4 is broken after he held a button too long and it came up with something unexpected.

I'll have to hold out until the Elite is available for a more reasonable price.

tezza007 · Post by **tezza007** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 15:39

michal wrote:But any father is the primary user of this and he still struggles with double clicking on a computer...

People still do that?

I've been single clicking for many years

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 16:23

Just to throw in another perspective as a Harmony Touch user (looks pretty similar to the Ultimate One), I usually have my touch screen programmed so with a tap it will play or pause and that overcomes a lot of the problem with the transport keys position. It was also set to fast forward and rewind but no need with the arrows covering skips, so I could change it it other shortcuts.

michal · Post by **michal** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 16:43

tezza007 wrote:
michal wrote:But any father is the primary user of this and he still struggles with double clicking on a computer...
People still do that? I've been single clicking for many years

If it was single clicking then everything would always be open simultaneously. My dad often clicks even when trying to move the mouse.

What he really needs is a remote with one button thatbdoesnwhayeverbhe wants it tonsonat the time he presses it.

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