Beyonwiz UI

[mallycat]

I recently read a review about the Beyonwiz - in short the review said it was good but the UI needed work. I have come from TiVo to a T4 and I must admit there are some things I find that are harder that I expect. Is there any formal or informal way to provide feedback and suggestions to the UI development, or are there any alternative UIs?

[MrQuade]

You can make any suggestions that you like in the buh and feature requests section of the forum. The firmware and consequently the UI is all open source and anyone with the skills can work too improve it. It is certainly not a simple matter though.

Even with that being said, within the existing enigma2 framework, I wouldn't be expecting miracles to be worked on the look and operation of the UI. The most that can be done for that is to re-skin the elements that already exist, so changes are largely limited to cosmetic matters.

IanSav has undertaken his own re-skin effort among his other UI enhancements. His OverlayHD skin may be something you could try out. It offers many additional colour scheme modifications than the base skin does. There is also the alternate skin that comes bundled with the firmware called "Full Metal". You can try that one out just by switching skins in the main menu.

I am not sure how old the review was that you read, but the Wiz UI has been undergoing constant improvement in response to community feedback ever since the T3 was first released. The next major version of firmware is almost out, so perhaps wait for that, install it, and then provide your suggestions for improvement in the feature requests section of the forum.

[prl]

... changes are largely limited to cosmetic matters. ...

While I agree that large changes in "the way things are done" are unlikely, functional changes beyond just cosmetics are possible.

While I agree that there are a number of things that I find clunky in the UI*, it's always easier to evaluate concrete requests for improvements, rather than broad "should do better" statements.

* Eg: I've recently been using a DP-S1 at my daughter's and its press-and-hold for longer skips is certainly easier to use than the T series skip bar.

[MrQuade]

While I agree that large changes in "the way things are done" are unlikely, functional changes beyond just cosmetics are possible.

You're correct of course, and I was probably a bit careless in my choice of wording there, What I was aiming at was to say that the UI is never going to be anything but menus and lists composed of mostly text and the occasional graphics elements. There would never be a redesign that fundamentally alters the UI to make it more like something you would expect from the big brand entertainment products such as those from Sony or Apple etc...(substantial graphical elements with animations, screen transitions and other "fun" flourishes).

* Eg: I've recently been using a DP-S1 at my daughter's and its press-and-hold for longer skips is certainly easier to use than the T series skip bar.

Yes, there is a reason it is one of the most requested features for newly converted users

[IanSav]

Hi Mallycat,

I recently read a review about the Beyonwiz - in short the review said it was good but the UI needed work. I have come from TiVo to a T4 and I must admit there are some things I find that are harder that I expect. Is there any formal or informal way to provide feedback and suggestions to the UI development, or are there any alternative UIs?

Have you considered giving the OverlayHD skin a try? OverlayHD Skin...

I am always open to bug reports and enhancement suggestions for OverlayHD.

If you are a graphical artist and want to contribute to OverlayHD please check out this thread: OverlayHD Skin Icons and Images...

Regards,
Ian.

[mallycat]

Thanks all for the replies. I am actually pretty happy with the look and feel. There are just some button events that I found useful with my TiVo the table I think would improve the Beyonwiz experience. I will log them as suggested, but for the record, here are a few things.

1.When in the media list, up and down arrows move up and down 1 item. The channel up/down speed jumps to the top or bottom of the folder list - great! I would like to see the channel up/down work in the epg. E.g. When in the epg, up and down arrows move one item - great. Please make the channel up/down move a full page in the epg. I realise the button does something else already and my option is just one opinion, but I think this suggestion is more useful.

2. When in the epg, if I press the media button. I get the "button not allowed" icon. I would like to press it and jump to the media list. It seems a pretty reasonable and common use case to look at the epg and then want to look at the recordings.

3. The opposite of 2 is also true. Why can't I jump from the recordings list to the epg?

4. This last one might be structurally harder. What I loved about my TiVo was I could go to the epg and swap to a channel that was already recording. I could then jump to the start and start watching. It was a bit like rewinding live tv but leveraging the scheduled recording.

Just a few ideas.

[mallycat]

@MrQuade, can you please provide a link to the bugs and suggestion section. I have looked but can't find it.

[prl]

You may need to a bit of a broader look at what EPG buttons do. Remember that there are several EPG screens: the graphical (grid) EPGs, the single-channel EPG, the multi-EPG and the InfoBar EPGs.

I'm not saying they are currently all coherent in their button use, but just changing button allocation in the graphical EPGs may not be appropriate.

One reason why CH+/- isn't used for up/down pagination is that navigation in the graphical (and infobar) EPGs is two-dimensional, so 2/8/4/6 are page up/down/left/right, mirroring the navigation button layout.

[prl]

@MrQuade, can you please provide a link to the bugs and suggestion section. I have looked but can't find it.

The Bug Reporting and Feature Requests section in the Beyonwiz T2 / T3 /T4 area.

I'll probably move this discussion there tomorrow if no-one else does.

[MrQuade]

@MrQuade, can you please provide a link to the bugs and suggestion section. I have looked but can't find it.

The appropriate section for feature suggestion posts is here.

2. When in the epg, if I press the media button. I get the "button not allowed" icon. I would like to press it and jump to the media list. It seems a pretty reasonable and common use case to look at the epg and then want to look at the recordings.

That one is already a suggested feature. There are quite a few users who have asked for direct access to certain screens from other screens. There are a few considerations that need to be made before leading into a change like that, if you have a hunt in the requests forum you may be able to find the existing discussions and contribute there.
Edit: found one here
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=9922

4. This last one might be structurally harder. What I loved about my TiVo was I could go to the epg and swap to a channel that was already recording. I could then jump to the start and start watching. It was a bit like rewinding live tv but leveraging the scheduled recording.

You are correct that it is quite difficult to do this given the way that the Wiz handles its recordings.
The are also some threads discussing this that you can have a read of (since this is also an frequently requested feature).

[prl]

Changing the way the EPG exits (including to other screens) is surprisingly complicated. For instance, should pressing MEDIA in the EPG perform the OK or EXIT action with respect to channel selection?

If you enter the single channel EPG or the event info screens from the (or rather an EPG) should MEDIA work there, too?

[peteru]

1.When in the media list, up and down arrows move up and down 1 item. The channel up/down speed jumps to the top or bottom of the folder list

And LEFT/RIGHT jump a whole page at a time.

[mallycat]

@prl, yes there are questions. In my view if you are in the EPG and you press Media, then it is a clear implicit exit. Same if you are in media and you press EPG

[prl]

@prl, yes there are questions. In my view if you are in the EPG and you press Media, then it is a clear implicit exit. Same if you are in media and you press EPG

I'm talking about the effect of the exit on the channel selection in the EPG. Exiting the EPG with EXIT does something different from exiting the EPG with OK (and exactly what they do depends on the EPG settings). This isn't an equivalent situation to being in the media selection screen and pressing EPG, because the media selection screen doesn't have any channel selection functions.

So for the channel selection function of the EPG, is the "clear implicit exit" from the EPG screen by pressing MEDIA equivalent to the explicit exit using OK or the explicit exit using EXIT?

[mallycat]

I am talking from a user experience. I understand there are important technical questions beneath that. This is why there are business analysts and technical analysts in the world - they help translate the desired user experience to a technical design.

Speaking from a pure user experience, when I am in the epg and I want to switch to media, this is what happens to me (and my wife)

1. I click the media button
2. I get an icon telling me I can't do that
3. I click exit
4. I click media
5. The media list appears

Of course you could argues that I should learn from experience and skip steps 1 and 2 and start straight at step 3. That would be a reasonable view but still not as good an experience as the one below.

What I think would be a better user experience is the following

I am in the epg and I want to switch to media.
1. I click the media button
2. The media list appears.

Jmo.

[prl]

I am talking from a user experience. I understand there are important technical questions beneath that. This is why there are business analysts and technical analysts in the world - they help translate the desired user experience to a technical design.

We don't really have the luxury of people in those sorts of roles. You're talking directly o the people who would translate this user request into code if it's thought useful and isn't too hard to implement. In all likelihood, I'd probably be the person doing the implementation.

Speaking from a pure user experience, when I am in the epg and I want to switch to media, this is what happens to me (and my wife)

1. I click the media button
2. I get an icon telling me I can't do that

Well, don't then

3. I click exit
4. I click media
5. The media list appears
Of course you could argues that I should learn from experience and skip steps 1 and 2 and start straight at step 3. That would be a reasonable view but still not as good an experience as the one below.

It's only one more button press. It might be nicer to transition straight to the media selection screen, but I don't think it's a particularly large impost on the user.

Also remember that the behaviour of the exit from the EPG is different depending whether you exit with OK or with EXIT (the forum convention is to capitalise remote button names to contrast them with actions with similar names).

3. I click exit
What I think would be a better user experience is the following

I am in the epg and I want to switch to media.
1. I click the media button
2. The media list appears.
...

As I've mentioned, the detail of that transition is not defined by that description. What should be done with a pending channel change when the EPG channel preview mode is enabled (this is the default). Should the switch cancel the pending change (like pressing EXIT in the EPG), or should it make the change (like pressing OK in the EPG)? Should there be yet another setting to allow user choice of the behaviour? (Please, not this one!)

[IanSav]

Hi Prl,

If the user is in the EPG and then decides to watch a recording instead and wants to do this by pressing MEDIA while in the EPG then I think it should be acceptable to assume that the user wants to abandon and pending channel change in the EPG. If they really wanted to change the channel to continue watching live TV then they would complete the pending EPG channel change.

The trick might be can the user return to the EPG when they exit the media player?

Regards,
Ian.

[prl]

Hi Prl,

If the user is in the EPG and then decides to watch a recording instead and wants to do this by pressing MEDIA while in the EPG then I think it should be acceptable to assume that the user wants to abandon and pending channel change in the EPG. If they really wanted to change the channel to continue watching live TV then they would complete the pending EPG channel change.

Live TV continues to play when you enter the media selection screen, and continues to play if you exit from the media selection screen (and when you exit from the media player if live TV on return to the selection screen is enabled), so it's not at all clear to me that the desired action is to cancel the pending channel change.

The trick might be can the user return to the EPG when they exit the media player?
...

Or should the user exit from the media selection screen back to live TV with EXIT, and go to the EPG on the EPG button? At the moment, I think that the EPG can only be entered from the media player, and not from the media selection screen (not able to test at the moment).

[IanSav]

Hi Prl,

Live TV continues to play when you enter the media selection screen, and continues to play if you exit from the media selection screen (and when you exit from the media player if live TV on return to the selection screen is enabled), so it's not at all clear to me that the desired action is to cancel the pending channel change.

I think I see your point. While in the EPG you may be previewing a channel but then the user presses MEDIA and the user jumps to the media list screen with the original and not the preview TV channel playing in the background. This would be a jarring change.

Or should the user exit from the media selection screen back to live TV with EXIT, and go to the EPG on the EPG button? At the moment, I think that the EPG can only be entered from the media player, and not from the media selection screen (not able to test at the moment).

This could be a case of EXIT returning to the EPG and long EXIT returning to live TV. Thought EPG to exit to the EPG and EXIT to exit to live TV does make sense.

Predictability and following user expectation would probably be the key to a successful user interface.

Regards,
Ian.

[MrQuade]

I think that whatever action the EXIT button performs (according to the user's current settings) should be what the MEDIA button performs before bringing up the media browser interface.

A user that is used to the way that preview mode works should be used to the transition back to the original service when existing the EPG.
(Though I do not use preview mode myself so I am only speculating there. I find preview mode completely counterintuitive in a user interface that makes such a point of having the service running in the background, and that is in addition to the fact that you lose timeshift buffer when previewing....that to me implies that the "preview" is not just a temporary "peek" at the channel)</sidebar>

[prl]

I think that whatever action the EXIT button performs (according to the user's current settings) should be what the MEDIA button performs before bringing up the media browser interface.

Why not the OK action?

A user that is used to the way that preview mode works should be used to the transition back to the original service when existing the EPG.
(Though I do not use preview mode myself so I am only speculating there. I find preview mode completely counterintuitive in a user interface that makes such a point of having the service running in the background, and that is in addition to the fact that you lose timeshift buffer when previewing....that to me implies that the "preview" is not just a temporary "peek" at the channel)</sidebar>

The PiG screen in the EPGs that have it is nothing more than a rescaled view of the live TV channel. It's not using the PiP capability of the device (if it has that). When you "preview", you switch the live TV channel, which loses timeshift on the original channel, and then if you press EXIT, you switch back to the saved channel that you were on when you entered the EPG.

[MrQuade]

Why not the OK action?

To me, pressing the MEDIA button is equivalent to "I don't care what's on TV any more and want to see my media files". So its a case of just dismissing the screen without particular care for what is on Live TV.

The PiG screen in the EPGs that have it is nothing more than a rescaled view of the live TV channel. It's not using the PiP capability of the device (if it has that). When you "preview", you switch the live TV channel, which loses timeshift on the original channel, and then if you press EXIT, you switch back to the saved channel that you were on when you entered the EPG.

Exactly right, and by that definition to me it is not a "preview" in the sense of the word, but rather a zap with an automatic zap-back when done. Anyway, that was just me making noise, and not really relevant to the topic at hand.

[000]

+1 for me, for when you're in the EPG and you press Media (or if you're in Media, and you press EPG). It should be a direct pathway. The user has elected to shoot off in a completely different direction, and they should be allowed to change their mind, and make that choice

[prl]

Saving one whole button press.

[000]

It's not 1 key press... If you're in the second level of EPG, it takes two "exit" button presses, before you can press Media.

If you're in the Media section, it takes two "exit" presses, before you can press EPG. So that's three keypresses, instead of just one.

Two extra button presses may not seem like much, but this is where the bigger picture kicks in... It is about a user's expectation to get there quicker. The interface (extra "hoops" to jump through) is slowing them down with unnecessary steps. And it adds (or should i say 'takes away' at the moment) to the overall user experience. The more positive the user experience, the more HAPPIER existing Beyonwiz users there are. And with more happy existing Beyonwiz users, there becomes the opportunity for more positive advocates, thus causing more people to buy Bwiz's instead of a competitor, due to the positive word-of-mouth.

So two key presses in the big scheme of things, actually does make a world of difference.

[prl]

Two or three presses of the same button doesn't seem to be a big barrier to me.

Anyway, if this feature were easy to implement, it would quite likely be implemented already. There is an existing long and pretty comprehensive discussion of it here in this very topic. Item 2 of the request list. A reply in that topic links off to an even earlier request for the same thing.

A contribution of code that sensibly implements the function would probably be accepted.

[peteru]

A contribution of code that sensibly implements the function would probably be accepted.

It would be probably examined with suspicion and reluctance. Mainly because of all the issues we have seen with up/down keys not working as a result of adding a shortcut to the main menu when playing back media, instead of traversing back through the stack using EXIT.

[adoxa]

Here's my solution to enable TIMER/MEDIA/EPG to be accessible from each other (source). If anyone would like to try it out, download the attachment, extract it somewhere the Wiz can see it, browse to timer-media-epg and run setup.sh (repeat to remove; incompatible with directory counting and multiple selections, ask for a combined version).

[adoxa]

A contribution of code that sensibly implements the function would probably be accepted.

It would be probably examined with suspicion and reluctance. Mainly because of all the issues we have seen with up/down keys not working as a result of adding a shortcut to the main menu when playing back media, instead of traversing back through the stack using EXIT.

I've been using it for quite a while without incident, so finally got up the nerve to submit it.