Req: More sensible closed caption behaviour for T3

[PStepanas]

Because I suffer from some hearing loss, I frequently turn closed caption on and off. Unfortunately, my T3 makes this a more cumbersome process than it should be.

It's important to note that I do prefer to watch without subtitles, so when I can't understand a section of dialogue, I often skip back and turn on the captions, then turn them back off when I feel I don't need them any more. I expect this is typcial behaviour for the partially deaf.

Currently, pressing the SUBTITLE button does not immediately turn on subtitles. Instead, the screen is obstructed by a large dialogue box right in the middle of the picture, which remains for a fixed 5 seconds. Only after that do the subtitles turn on or off.

While the dialogue box can be cancelled by pressing EXIT, the arguably poor design of the remote makes this less than convenient. And, more importantly, this behaviour is totally unnecessary!

I therefore ask that the T3's response to the SUBTITLE button be changed, as follows:

1) Move the dialogue box to the bottom of the screen and make it smaller (and always transparent).

2) Create a setting that allows the user to set the length of the dialogue's display, in half-second increments, from 0 (do not display) to the current 5s.

3) Set the default display time for the dialogue to 2.5s.

4) If there is no subtitle or closed caption track, display a message to this effect. This message should be no more prominent than the on/off message (and should replace it). However, if the on/off dialogue time has been set less than 2s, display the "No subtitles" message for 2s anyway (so the user doesn't keep pressing the SUBTITLE button and wonder why nothing's happening). In this case, the subtitle state for this track should remain OFF.

5) Display the subtitles as soon as possible, when turning them on.

My thinking behind this is that, if you're turning subtitles on or off, you know you've done it because the subtitles appear or disappear! You don't really need a message telling you what you can see for yourself, unless there is no subtitle track, in which case a brief notification is sufficient. I don't think anyone would think the dialogue needs to display for a whole 5 seconds, especially not obscuring the centre of the picture!

On a related note, I've noticed that sometimes closed captions can be out of sync or disappear altogether. This often happens with edited recordings I made on my DP-P2, but the de-sync can happen at other times too. Perhaps this system could be made a little more robust. (Note that, when the subtitles stop appearing after an edited-out ad break, they usually come back if I jump back to a point just after the ad break.)

Thank you for listening. I hope you can understand why this is important and are able to assign the necessary resources before too long.

Sincerely, ...

[MrQuade]

What is your suggestion for when there are multiple subtitle tracks?

[prl]

...
4) If there is no subtitle or closed caption track, display a message to this effect. This message should be no more prominent than the on/off message (and should replace it). However, if the on/off dialogue time has been set less than 2s, display the "No subtitles" message for 2s anyway (so the user doesn't keep pressing the SUBTITLE button and wonder why nothing's happening). In this case, the subtitle state for this track should remain OFF.

The code does display a "No subtitles available" if there are no subtitle tracks. The problem with Australian TV broadcasts is that there is almost always a subtitles track, but it simply contains no data if there are no subtitles for the show. That's not as simple a thing to detect.

5) Display the subtitles as soon as possible, when turning them on.

My thinking behind this is that, if you're turning subtitles on or off, you know you've done it because the subtitles appear or disappear! You don't really need a message telling you what you can see for yourself, unless there is no subtitle track, in which case a brief notification is sufficient. I don't think anyone would think the dialogue needs to display for a whole 5 seconds, especially not obscuring the centre of the picture!

The subtitles are started immediately (before the popup is displayed). There's no way at the user interface level to make them display faster. Depending on how they are slotted into the broadcast stream, there may not be a way to make them appear faster at all.

On a related note, I've noticed that sometimes closed captions can be out of sync or disappear altogether. This often happens with edited recordings I made on my DP-P2, but the de-sync can happen at other times too. Perhaps this system could be made a little more robust. (Note that, when the subtitles stop appearing after an edited-out ad break, they usually come back if I jump back to a point just after the ad break.)

You may be able to fix the subtitles on edited recordings by running software that fixes time code breaks.

When ABC HD was introduced, the timing of subtitles was affected on a number of ABC services. The subtitles ran ahead of the dialog. The problem was only fixed a couple of weeks ago.

On shows that are live captioned, like news, the subtitles normally run a significant time after the soundtrack. There's really nothing that can be done about that.

The obtrusiveness of the subtitles popup is something that has been discussed before on the forum, and it was suggested that a "light-weight" popup be created that wasn't centred on the screen. So far, no-one has taken up that idea and implemented it.

The subtitle popup timeout is probably a bit long. The issue is that the subtitles functionality is more than what is apparent from broadcasts. The SUBTITLE button doesn't in fact turn subtitles on and off. It cycles through "no subtitles" and all the available subtitle tracks in the data stream. The longer timeout was intended to allow time for anyone to see exactly what the subtitles were (you may not, for example, want the ones in, say, Spanish). That's one reason wht the popup seems to be unnecessarily verbose (like giving the subtitle language). The timeout probably is a bit too long, though, even taking that into account.

Thank you for listening. I hope you can understand why this is important and are able to assign the necessary resources before too long. ...

Generally, the people on the forum who fix and implement firmware issues and improvements are simply Beyonwiz users who work on the firmware in their spare time. The firmware is Open Source. There isn't any sort of formal resource allocation. There is an issue tracker, but no-one assigning tasks to individuals from it.

If you want to raise these issues with Beyonwiz, you're probably better off to deal with Beyonwiz support directly.

[netmask]

What is your suggestion for when there are multiple subtitle tracks?

There never are in Australia as far as our local TV is concerned. But certainly on some external files like MKV's etc might. But for the bulk of users in Australia it's English or nothing. I support the OP on this one the box is way too big and ought to be transparent so as not to obstruct the action.

If you have the opportunity look at the way Cloud Media Popcorn series media players handle subs. Flexible positioning and sub title font size etc. Similar operating Linux system.

[prl]

... I support the OP on this one the box is way too big and ought to be transparent so as not to obstruct the action.

The subtitles popup does have transparency on. You can see the action through it, though perhaps it could be more transparent.

If you have the opportunity look at the way Cloud Media Popcorn series media players handle subs. Flexible positioning and sub title font size etc.

This issue has been gone over before, and as I posted, it's generally been agreed that an additional less obtrusive style of info popup is needed for subtitles, and possibly for some other information popups that don't require user interaction (like the "recording started" popup). I've looked at how it might be implemented, and I think it's feasible to do the sort of think that peteru describes in the link below, but it's not a trivial job. It it had been, I probably would have done it already.

See, for example, here and a few following posts (you'll need to look past some of the other stuff in the posts, it's mentioned as a side issue in the discussion of something else). It just needs someone to be motivated enough, and have time enough, to implement it. Volunteers are, of course, always most welcome

Similar operating Linux system.

Similar operating system, but completely different UI base.

PStepanas, if you'd like some background about the current implementation of subtitle choice, see Subtitle button to toggle subtitles on/off. Prior to that, the only way to access subtitles was by the mechanism that's now accessed by long-SUBTITLE. If you choose subtitles that way, you don't get the Selected subtitles/Subtitles off popups, but the long-SUBTITLES box is larger and no more transparent that the short-SUBTITLE popups.

There's further background on how the subtitles interface got to be the way it is in Subtitle screen - way too large.

There might also be useful information in Global subtitles ON/OFF

[PStepanas]

Thanks for the responses.

I didn't realise that the firmware was open source. It's a shame I don't have time to get involved in the programming myself.

Before I respond to some of the posters:

I would be perfectly happy to be able to reduce the length of the pop-up box appearing, via a Subtitle Setting (down to 0.5 secs).

Responses:

The on-screen dialogue box is obviously too big, as confirmed by other posters (in previous linked threads, too). That is, it is much bigger than it needs to be.

The dialogue box *is* translucent -- I apologise. I was working from memory. I've also changed skins to the non-Australian skin, which is interesting. I'm sticking with it only because it displays resolution and signal strength in the program pop-up.

I wasn't sure about the timing issues or when the subtitles first display. Again, I was working from memory. I guess they work fine, but it probably waits for the next timing point rather than displaying the current (hence, past) subtitle.

The multiple subtitle track issues appears to have been resolved by the excellent fix two version ago (that introduced the long button press for selections). I wish Blu-ray player manufacturers were as smart: obviously, 99% of users are always going to select the same language for subtitles, so it makes sense that the subtitle button be a simple on/off on the default language, except in extraordinary circumstances.

Thanks again.

Hopefully someone has added "setting for varying how the subtitle on/off dialogue appears" to the issues/request list, in addition to "position and size of subtitles dialogue need adjusting."

[prl]

...
Hopefully someone has added "setting for varying how the subtitle on/off dialogue appears" to the issues/request list, in addition to "position and size of subtitles dialogue need adjusting."

One of my un-commenced back burner issues is to implement a lightweight popup, possibly with configurable position, for simple feedback messages like the subtitles, audio track and (optional) recording started popups.

I had a look at the code and the skins a while back, and I don't think it will be too hard, but it's also not really on my urgent list.

It doesn't look as though it's actually got into the issue tracker. I'll remedy that.

[IanSav]

Hi PStepanas,

What non Beyonwiz skin did you find that works on the Beyonwiz?

Regards,
Ian.