Global subtitles ON/OFF

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 17:43

Hi,

prl wrote:There is no global subtitles on/off on the T series. In fact it's something that's been requested.

+1 (but I may have already voted)

Instead of turning subtitles off/on, would it be possible to make them clear/solid?

dRdoS7

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 17:54

dRdoS7 wrote:...
prl wrote:There is no global subtitles on/off on the T series. In fact it's something that's been requested.
+1 (but I may have already voted)

There isn't really a subtitles on/off. Subtitles can be off or a selected subtitle stream. It's just an artifact of the fact that Australian TV broadcasts and many media files only have one subtitle stream that it looks like subtitles are "on/off". They're really more like "off/English/French/German", and they aren't necessarily labelled.

But it's probably possible to do something that works most of the time.

dRdoS7 wrote:Instead of turning subtitles off/on, would it be possible to make them clear/solid? ...

I'm not sure what you mean (and I don't mean about the on/off bit).

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Wed Jan 13, 2016 18:52

Hi,

Yeah, heard all about the other cr@p before!

Other brands have the ability to turn subs on/off globally. Press button: subs go off. Press again: subs go on.

prl wrote:I'm not sure what you mean (and I don't mean about the on/off bit).

Make them invisible to the user. Always display them. If subs are off they're invisible (ie. clear/transparent/"insert own suitable word to indicate they can't be seen even though they are there"). If subs are on, make them not invisible (ie. visible. choice of colour: white/yellow/puce).

Maybe make them like the non-scroll bars in OverlayHD skin! BW has no problems not displaying them when they're not there.

(could be one too many negatives there, I lost track)

dRdoS7

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Thu Jan 14, 2016 16:57

Hi dRdoS7,

dRdoS7 wrote:Maybe make them like the non-scroll bars in OverlayHD skin! BW has no problems not displaying them when they're not there.

If you are concerned that the OverlayHD scroll bars could not be hidden when not required then be concerned no more. This has been fixed for the next release of OverlayHD. Thanks to a system fix provided by Prl I now have the ability to change the colour of the scrollbars as well as make them disappear completely if they are not required.

Regards,
Ian.

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Jan 14, 2016 17:04

dRdoS7 wrote:...
Yeah, heard all about the other cr@p before!

If you think I'm talking rubbish, I'm happy to not discuss the question.

dRdoS7 wrote:Other brands have the ability to turn subs on/off globally. Press button: subs go off. Press again: subs go on.

I'm aware of that. I'm talking about this brand.

dRdoS7 wrote:
prl wrote:I'm not sure what you mean (and I don't mean about the on/off bit).
Make them invisible to the user. Always display them. If subs are off they're invisible (ie. clear/transparent/"insert own suitable word to indicate they can't be seen even though they are there"). If subs are on, make them not invisible (ie. visible. choice of colour: white/yellow/puce).
...

There's no problem about making the subtitles appear or not appear on the screen. That already happens, and it's not the question that needs to be answered. The question is, without user intervention, what subtitles should be displayed when a new service is started (live or playback) and it has more than one subtitle stream? I.e. there's no guarantee that there's only one of "them" available at any time.

Anyway, if it's so simple to do, perhaps it'd make a good introductory exercise in improving the firmware for someone who has a strong interest in having the enhancement.

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Thu Jan 14, 2016 17:41

I've never had a problem with subtitles not doing what I want. Have you tried:

Setup / TV / Auto language and tweak. You probably want to select None for all the languages.
Setup / TV / Subtitle settings and tweak. You probably want to disable the option that automatically turns on subtitles.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Thu Jan 14, 2016 19:57

Hi,

peteru wrote:I've never had a problem with subtitles not doing what I want. Have you tried:

Setup / TV / Auto language and tweak. You probably want to select None for all the languages.
Setup / TV / Subtitle settings and tweak. You probably want to disable the option that automatically turns on subtitles.

The subtitles turn off/on, and I must say much quicker with the "single press" update, that's not the problem. When I turn them off, say while watching a recording, the next file I play, they are back on again.

I will check the other settings though.

The "automatic" option is only for external files isn't it? It's off on mine.

I'm busy replacing a failing NAS HDD.

dRdoS7

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 20:01

Hi,

IanSav wrote:Hi dRdoS7,
dRdoS7 wrote:Maybe make them like the non-scroll bars in OverlayHD skin! BW has no problems not displaying them when they're not there.
If you are concerned that the OverlayHD scroll bars could not be hidden when not required then be concerned no more. This has been fixed for the next release of OverlayHD. Thanks to a system fix provided by Prl I now have the ability to change the colour of the scrollbars as well as make them disappear completely if they are not required.

Regards,
Ian.

Cool, does that also fix the "see-through" graphics?

I was using the scroll bars (or lack of them actually) as an example that it maybe possible to make the subs invisible/visible, rather than turning them off/on, which seems to present some problems. So the subs can be on all the time, just invisible or visible.

Is it possible to make text invisible? Maybe make the subs position off-screen, or behind the video?

dRdoS7

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 20:07

I think you need to forget about this visible/invisible thing. It would be no harder/easier to make them visible/transparent than it would be to have them on or off. The issue is tracking when they need to be shown, and the way to determine that would likely be the same in both cases.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 20:18

Hi dRdoS7,

Please ask your OverlayHD specific questions in the OverlayHD thread so we don't take this thread off topic.

I don't know what you are trying to achieve with your suggestion for transparent subtitles but I think, without testing the idea, that it could be possible to paint the subtitles layer as totally transparent. The problem is how and when to switch between the transparent and non transparent modes. All in all I think you are trying to tackle a small subtitle control issue with a very large sledgehammer and using that sledgehammer on the wrong object (screen UI rather than subtitle control).

Regards,
Ian.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 20:51

Hi,

prl wrote:
dRdoS7 wrote:...
Yeah, heard all about the other cr@p before!
If you think I'm talking rubbish, I'm happy to not discuss the question.

Didn't say you were talking rubbish. Just that I'd heard it before (or something similar).

prl wrote:
dRdoS7 wrote:Other brands have the ability to turn subs on/off globally. Press button: subs go off. Press again: subs go on.
I'm aware of that. I'm talking about this brand.

So, then: "how hard can it be?"

prl wrote:
dRdoS7 wrote:
prl wrote:I'm not sure what you mean (and I don't mean about the on/off bit).
Make them invisible to the user. Always display them. If subs are off they're invisible (ie. clear/transparent/"insert own suitable word to indicate they can't be seen even though they are there"). If subs are on, make them not invisible (ie. visible. choice of colour: white/yellow/puce).
...
There's no problem about making the subtitles appear or not appear on the screen. That already happens, and it's not the question that needs to be answered. The question is, without user intervention, what subtitles should be displayed when a new service is started (live or playback) and it has more than one subtitle stream? I.e. there's no guarantee that there's only one of "them" available at any time.

As you said earlier: there's only one subs stream (mostly), even if there's 2, just make it the first.

prl wrote:Anyway, if it's so simple to do, perhaps it'd make a good introductory exercise in improving the firmware for someone who has a strong interest in having the enhancement.

For you it would be simple, for someone with very little programming experience, not so. It's a lot to learn, before even looking at code, let alone changing it.

Yes, I've tried, not a big Linux fan. I did set up Linux in a VM, downloaded the SDK (maybe necessary to test code?), got Bitbucket, Sourcetree, got some folders & files on my HDD, got stuck in the tutorial: I couldn't "commit"! Got NFI.

dRdoS7

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 20:55

Hi,

IanSav wrote:Hi dRdoS7,

Please ask your OverlayHD specific questions in the OverlayHD thread so we don't take this thread off topic.

I don't know what you are trying to achieve with your suggestion for transparent subtitles but I think, without testing the idea, that it could be possible to paint the subtitles layer as totally transparent. The problem is how and when to switch between the transparent and non transparent modes. All in all I think you are trying to tackle a small subtitle control issue with a very large sledgehammer and using that sledgehammer on the wrong object (screen UI rather than subtitle control).

Regards,
Ian.

I'm not trying to tackle the subs, just throwing ideas. It seems a global subs on/off is hard to do.

dRdoS7

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 21:22

dRdoS7 wrote: I'm not trying to tackle the subs, just throwing ideas. It seems a global subs on/off is hard to do.

And the short answer is that making them transparent would be more or less equally as problematic in terms of programming effort. The hard bit, as IanSav mentioned, is determining what to show and when, not the actual "how to make them appear".

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 21:26

There already is global off, it's just not a single setting. Once you configure all the relevant settings I hinted at to disable subtitles, then they will stay off until you explicitly enable them when you want them. If I understood the original request correctly, the goal is for subtitles to stay off until you explicitly turn them on. The assertion that this is not possible is wrong.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 23:34

The way I read the request is that the user wants to be able to press the subtitle button, and then subtitles will be on for all services and media. Pressing the subtitle button again would then switch off subtitles for all services and media.
Prl was saying that it wasn't quite that simple.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 07:43

Hi,

peteru wrote:There already is global off, it's just not a single setting. Once you configure all the relevant settings I hinted at to disable subtitles, then they will stay off until you explicitly enable them when you want them. If I understood the original request correctly, the goal is for subtitles to stay off until you explicitly turn them on. The assertion that this is not possible is wrong.

Here's my Auto Lang/Subs settings:

Everything is turned off, as hinted, AFAICS. Have I missed something?

If I turn subs off when playing a file, they will stay off next time I play that file.

When I play a new recording, the subs are on. Turn them off, next time they are off. Which is OK for resuming play back.

That's my experience.

I don't know what happens with Live TV (and who would want to?), can't remember, I'll test later.

EDIT: I tested Live TV: Subs on/off is a "per channel" setting.

dRdoS7

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 07:45

Hi,

MrQuade wrote:The way I read the request is that the user wants to be able to press the subtitle button, and then subtitles will be on for all services and media. Pressing the subtitle button again would then switch off subtitles for all services and media.
Prl was saying that it wasn't quite that simple.

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

dRdoS7

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 13:11

Hi,

dRdoS7 wrote:Hi,

peteru wrote:I've never had a problem with subtitles not doing what I want. Have you tried:

Setup / TV / Auto language and tweak. You probably want to select None for all the languages.
Setup / TV / Subtitle settings and tweak. You probably want to disable the option that automatically turns on subtitles.
The subtitles turn off/on, and I must say much quicker with the "single press" update, that's not the problem. When I turn them off, say while watching a recording, the next file I play, they are back on again.

I will check the other settings though.

The "automatic" option is only for external files isn't it? It's off on mine.

I'm busy replacing a failing NAS HDD.

dRdoS7

After that post, I posted all my setting WRT Subtitles, as per peteru post/s, and they still don't stay off when a new file is played.

Can I post this (highlighted), as a bug?

dRdoS7

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 14:54

I believe from PRL post that if they were on at the time of recording for that channel, then every time you open one of the recordings for that channel they will be on for that initially.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 15:22

tonymy01 wrote:I believe from PRL post that if they were on at the time of recording for that channel, then every time you open one of the recordings for that channel they will be on for that initially.

I don't think I've ever said that, and I'm quite surprised to find that that's the case.*

* No reflection on tonymy01; I just thought it worked differently.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 15:27

dRdoS7 wrote:Hi,

dRdoS7 wrote:Hi,

peteru wrote:I've never had a problem with subtitles not doing what I want. Have you tried:

Setup / TV / Auto language and tweak. You probably want to select None for all the languages.
Setup / TV / Subtitle settings and tweak. You probably want to disable the option that automatically turns on subtitles.
The subtitles turn off/on, and I must say much quicker with the "single press" update, that's not the problem. When I turn them off, say while watching a recording, the next file I play, they are back on again.

I will check the other settings though.

The "automatic" option is only for external files isn't it? It's off on mine.

I'm busy replacing a failing NAS HDD.

dRdoS7
After that post, I posted all my setting WRT Subtitles, as per peteru post/s, and they still don't stay off when a new file is played.

Can I post this (highlighted), as a bug?

dRdoS7

I can't reproduce this, so no, I don't think it should be posted as a bug yet. When it can be reproduced, and if it still looks like a bug, then yes.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 15:52

prl wrote:
dRdoS7 wrote:Hi,

dRdoS7 wrote:Hi,

peteru wrote:I've never had a problem with subtitles not doing what I want. Have you tried:

Setup / TV / Auto language and tweak. You probably want to select None for all the languages.
Setup / TV / Subtitle settings and tweak. You probably want to disable the option that automatically turns on subtitles.
The subtitles turn off/on, and I must say much quicker with the "single press" update, that's not the problem. When I turn them off, say while watching a recording, the next file I play, they are back on again.

I will check the other settings though.

The "automatic" option is only for external files isn't it? It's off on mine.

I'm busy replacing a failing NAS HDD.

dRdoS7
After that post, I posted all my setting WRT Subtitles, as per peteru post/s, and they still don't stay off when a new file is played.

Can I post this (highlighted), as a bug?

dRdoS7
I can't reproduce this, so no, I don't think it should be posted as a bug yet. When it can be reproduced, and if it still looks like a bug, then yes.

I can reproduce it every time I play a new recording.

I tried it earlier with the 3 eps of new X-files. I played each file, the subs were ON. Then I played the 1st file, turned subs OFF. When I played the next 2 files again, subs were ON.

dRdoS7

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 16:31

dRdoS7 wrote:...
prl wrote: I can't reproduce this, so no, I don't think it should be posted as a bug yet. When it can be reproduced, and if it still looks like a bug, then yes.
I can reproduce it every time I play a new recording.

I tried it earlier with the 3 eps of new X-files. I played each file, the subs were ON. Then I played the 1st file, turned subs OFF. When I played the next 2 files again, subs were ON.

dRdoS7

Subtitles are "sticky" on recordings. If subtitles were on for a recording when you last played it, they will be on when you next start playing it. If they were off when you last played it, they will be off when you next play it.

It's hard to say whether what you're describing is normal behaviour or not.

Try turning subtitles off on a channel, make a short recording of it and stay on the same channel. Play the recording. Subtitles should be off. Turn them on. Stop playing the recording without turning subtitles off, and then play it again. Subtitles should be on. Turn subtitles off in the recording and stop it. Then play it again. Subtitles in the recording should be off.

If that's not what happens, please describe what does happen.

Paul_oz53 · Post by **Paul_oz53** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 17:38

Subtitles used to annoy me also so I would regard a global off switch as a nice enhancement. But last night I too played 3 eps of X-files with subs off. However I didn't see any of this behavior at all.

For some time now I have been successfully using the menu settings as peteru suggested to keep them off when not required. It really seems to be a local problem rather than a bug. If the testing prl proposes doesn't yield an answer I'd question whether local corruption could explain the problem.

Unrelated to subtitles, for ages the T3 suffered slow restarts of the GUI which turned out to be caused by a faulty network config file. In the absence of another explanation dRdoS7 may have a similar hidden fault elsewhere in his setup.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 18:23

prl wrote:
dRdoS7 wrote:...
prl wrote: I can't reproduce this, so no, I don't think it should be posted as a bug yet. When it can be reproduced, and if it still looks like a bug, then yes.
I can reproduce it every time I play a new recording.

I tried it earlier with the 3 eps of new X-files. I played each file, the subs were ON. Then I played the 1st file, turned subs OFF. When I played the next 2 files again, subs were ON.

dRdoS7
Subtitles are "sticky" on recordings. If subtitles were on for a recording when you last played it, they will be on when you next start playing it. If they were off when you last played it, they will be off when you next play it.

It's hard to say whether what you're describing is normal behaviour or not.

Try turning subtitles off on a channel, make a short recording of it and stay on the same channel. Play the recording. Subtitles should be off. Turn them on. Stop playing the recording without turning subtitles off, and then play it again. Subtitles should be on. Turn subtitles off in the recording and stop it. Then play it again. Subtitles in the recording should be off.

If that's not what happens, please describe what does happen.

I did the above, and it was as you described. So, as I understand it: Subtitle state (On/Off) for a recording depends on the state of the subtitles when the recording is made? The info is saved with the recording? Is that file editable?

I don't know whether the subs were on or off when any of my recordings were made.

dRdoS7

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 18:37

dRdoS7 wrote:.... So, as I understand it: Subtitle state (On/Off) for a recording depends on the state of the subtitles when the recording is made?

Apparently, but I've never noticed it happening on our in-use T4. If we want subtitles on a recording we always have to enable it.

dRdoS7 wrote:The info is saved with the recording? Is that file editable?

As far as I know it's not stored with the recording, and it certainly doesn't need to be stored with the recording, because the subtitle setting on live TV is also sticky, and stays set across reboots. That seems to indicate that it's stored somewhere in the filesystem, but I spent a couple of hours this afternoon trying to work out where it's stored with no success.

Since I don't know how the information is saved, I don't know whether it's editable. The file that saves it is likely to be overwritten by the system anyway, so without finding the root cause of why the behaviour is different from what you expect (and I'm not really sure what that is) changing the contents of the file doesn't seem likely to be a useful solution.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 19:04

Hi,

prl wrote:what you expect (and I'm not really sure what that is)

I thought I was clear: Press Subtitle button, subs go On, or Off, and stay that way. Not dependant on channel subtitle setting (hence the "Global" in the title), and (apparently) whether it was on or off when the recording was made (which I didn't know affected it - that's a new one).

prl wrote:I spent a couple of hours this afternoon trying to work out where it's stored with no success

First step to failure is trying! At least you had a go.

You think I would fare any better?

I checked my wife's T2, seems to be the same behavior as mine. Certainly with the same files (played from my T2).

dRdoS7

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 19:44

What prl is getting at, is that what you are seeing is the intended behaviour. So entering that behaviour as a bug is not helpful.

Making a global subtitle on/off feature request is what you are asking for.

I think that the sticking point here, and has been mentioned a few times, is that it is not that simple when you consider that some media have several subtitle tracks. Subtitles are not necessarily on/off, but a selection from a list of possible subtitle tracks (though saying that, frequently there will only be one subtitle track, especially on broadcast streams).

Now you might say that you only ever want the English subtitles to be activated when you turn the global toggle on, but sometimes the language is not tagged properly, or English could be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, nth subtitle track in that media....sometimes there is no way to know which one you want.

I guess I am just saying that what you are asking for is not straightforward.

Perhaps a start would be to limit your feature request to only have global toggle for broadcast live TV and recordings (not downloaded media). In that instance you would reasonably expect there to only ever be one subtitle track, and that might be something that can be easily toggled on/off globally. I say this in complete ignorance of the underlying complexity of the code, so take that as speculation from me.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 20:23

Hi,

MrQuade wrote:What prl is getting at, is that what you are seeing is the intended behaviour. So entering that behaviour as a bug is not helpful.

Strange behavior, IMO: the state of the subs on a channel when recording, affects the state when playing back (1st time that is). You don't agree?

The behavior of the subs of an already played file I can understand, as it would be in the same state next time, when you resume it. That makes perfect sense.

MrQuade wrote:Making a global subtitle on/off feature request is what you are asking for.

Yes. I guess except for the resuming file. Getting more complicated isn't it? Maybe forget that!

MrQuade wrote:I think that the sticking point here, and has been mentioned a few times, is that it is not that simple when you consider that some media have several subtitle tracks. Subtitles are not necessarily on/off, but a selection from a list of possible subtitle tracks (though saying that, frequently there will only be one subtitle track, especially on broadcast streams).

Yes, haven't seen many stations transmitting more than one.

MrQuade wrote:Now you might say that you only ever want the English subtitles to be activated when you turn the global toggle on, but sometimes the language is not tagged properly, or English could be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, nth subtitle track in that media....sometimes there is no way to know which one you want.

Yes, English. I only ever have one subs file, always english. Others may have more, but that should/could be taken care of via code I would have thought: if more than 1 lang./file, bring up a menu. Currently (I think) it cycles through them?

MrQuade wrote:I guess I am just saying that what you are asking for is not straightforward.

No, I understand that it's not.

MrQuade wrote:Perhaps a start would be to limit your feature request to only have global toggle for broadcast live TV and recordings (not downloaded media). In that instance you would reasonably expect there to only ever be one subtitle track, and that might be something that can be easily toggled on/off globally.

That would work.

MrQuade wrote:I say this in complete ignorance of the underlying complexity of the code, so take that as speculation from me.

Me too. Ignorant, that is.

dRdoS7

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 20:44

dRdoS7 wrote: Strange behavior, IMO: the state of the subs on a channel when recording, affects the state when playing back (1st time that is). You don't agree?

Possibly. It is interesting behaviour, but I'd day it was intended. Imagine if the recording was of a foreign language show, the reasonable assumption would be that on subsequent playback of the recording, the user would still want the subtitles enabled.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 21:48

MrQuade wrote:
dRdoS7 wrote: Strange behavior, IMO: the state of the subs on a channel when recording, affects the state when playing back (1st time that is). You don't agree?
Possibly. It is interesting behaviour, but I'd day it was intended. Imagine if the recording was of a foreign language show, the reasonable assumption would be that on subsequent playback of the recording, the user would still want the subtitles enabled.

Of all the behaviour described so far on this, I think that one's definitely a bug. I can't see any good reason why the subtitles state on a program being recorded should set that state for a recording. I suspect that it's an artefact of how subtitle selection is handled internally, and I doubt that it's intended.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 21:51

The reason I gave would be more valid in the Enigma2's original European market, but I agree that on Australian TV it makes a lot less sense.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 22:05

dRdoS7 wrote:... [is] The [subtitle "sticky"] info is saved with the recording? Is that file editable? ...

The "sticky" subtitle information for live TV is saved per channel in the services section of the /etc/enigma2/lamedb file:

Code: Select all

ABC
p:ABC,c:000200,c:01028a,c:020240,c:030080,c:092400108
0212:eeee0000:0211:1010:1:0
ABC2/KIDS

The saved subtitle info is the c:09 entry in the second line.

In recordings (and possibly also in media files), it's saved in the .meta file. It's the service info line again, the 7th line in the file, again the c:09 entry:

Code: Select all

1:0:1:351:350:3202:EEEE0000:0:0:0:
Martin Clunes: The Lemurs Of Madagascar
Martin Clunes highlight the problems facing the world's most endearing and endangered primates; lemurs. Hunting and habitat loss have become critical issues for these species. #SBSDoco
1455085418

12762851
67006772
f:0,c:0000a1,c:010051,c:020029,c:0300a1,c:09290108
188
0

I think I've worked out how the mechanism is supposed to work, but I need to prod and poke it a bit. I may not post about it until Friday.

The key is MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language>Prefer subtitles saved by service. If this is on, then "sticky" subtitles are used to select the subtitles when you change channels or (re-)view a recording or media file. If it is off, the Subtitle language selection settings are used, along with Allow subtitle to equal audio language. The latter allows you to say show English subtitles for foreign language media audio, but not have subtitles for English language media.

If it works, it comes close to a way to do global ON/OFF for subtitles already implemented

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 08:19

It looks like you can have subtitles always default to off by disabling MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language>Prefer subtitles saved by service, and setting all the MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language>Subtitle language selection N all to None.

You can have subtitles always default to on for up to 4 languages by disabling MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language>Prefer subtitles saved by service, and setting MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language>Subtitle language selection N to the languages you want to see subtitles in. If there are multiple soundtrack streams, the matching one with the highest priority will be selected. So, for example if you have English, French, German in that order in Subtitle language selection N and a media file has German and French subtitles, it will use the French subtitles.

If you enable MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language>Prefer subtitles saved by service the channel or media file, the PVR will remember its last subtitle stream setting, and will return to that stream setting when you return to the channel or media file. The ability to remember the subtitle stream for a media file or recording depends on the PVR being able to (re-)write a .meta file for the media file. Saved subtitle streams for channels are saved per PVR, recording and media file subtitle streams are saved per recording/file.

There isn't a single button that can turn subtitles on and off globally. I'm still thinking whether there's a clean ways to implement it.

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 08:44

dRdoS7 wrote:...
MrQuade wrote:I think that the sticking point here, and has been mentioned a few times, is that it is not that simple when you consider that some media have several subtitle tracks. Subtitles are not necessarily on/off, but a selection from a list of possible subtitle tracks (though saying that, frequently there will only be one subtitle track, especially on broadcast streams).
Yes, haven't seen many stations transmitting more than one.
...

The settings for subtitles aren't just for live TV and recordings. They're for all media files (I'm not sure how they interact with DVD playback).

Anyway, the nature of the subtitles system is not on/off: it's off or some selected subtitle stream. Any proposal for changing how it works needs to acknowledge that. Of course, different media files may have different sets of subtitle streams. That's not at all unusual for DVDs (but as I said, I'm not sure how DVD audio and subtitle stream selection is handled).

In Europe, where the software was mostly developed, I wouldn't be surprised if there were broadcasts with multiple subtitle streams, especially in multi-lingual countries like Switzerland or Belguim.

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 09:26

Hi,

Phew! 3 posts in a row. A bit of reading.

There's a lot of setting for subs isn't there?

prl wrote:The settings for subtitles aren't just for live TV and recordings. They're for all media files (I'm not sure how they interact with DVD playback).

Yes, I understand that. Subs for media file are always off when a file is played (my setting), they have to be turned on. That's an easy setting, but you do have to go to the menu to change the default. Possibly it could be linked the Subs button, so it stays in the last setting (ie ON or OFF).

I don't play DVDs very much any more, I rip any I want to watch. Saves getting up and changing discs. If I did play any, it would be via dedicated DVD/BD player, or a PC. I understand some people do use the T to play DVDs.

prl wrote:the nature of the subtitles system is not on/off: it's off or some selected subtitle stream. Any proposal for changing how it works needs to acknowledge that.

The OFF/"or some selected subtitle stream" sounds good.

Thanks for looking.

dRdoS7

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:14

There's still nothing I've seen in this discussion about what exactly a "global subtitle control" button would do, and in particular, how it would interact with the existing subtitle settings and the current function of the SUBTITLE button, or what other configuration settings would be needed to control it.

dRdoS7 wrote:The OFF/"or some selected subtitle stream" sounds good.

One of the things that any description of the function of the button would need to have is of just what "some selected subtitle stream" means for a global subtitle control button.

I'd prefer it if "subtitle on/off" wasn't used in the discussion, because that's not something that has much meaning in the subtitle system.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:01

If I may interject again to interpret this request.

This feature request would involve:
1) A new setting for a subtitle button mode called "Global subtitle control - enable/disable" (or something along those lines).
2) A new setting (or leverage an existing setting) for "Preferred global subtitle language - English/Italian/etc/etc/etc".
3) Pressing the subtitle button would turn on subtitles for all live streams, recordings and other media files. It would enable the first available subtitle track containing the preferred language, and failing finding the preferred language, would use the first available subtitle track.
4) No matter which channel you switch to or what media you play, subtitles in your preferred language will be enabled.
5) Pressing the subtitle button again would then turn off subtitles in all live streams, recordings, and other media.
6) No matter which channel you switch to or what media you play, subtitles in your preferred language will be disabled.
7) If the user pops up the subtitle menu while viewing a live stream, recording or media file, they can temporarily override the global subtitle setting for as long as that service is being viewed only. ie. The minute you stop playback or change channel, the global setting re-asserts itself on the new service and remains in effect even when returning to the original service that was temporarily overridden.

This new mode of operation would override all existing subtitle functionality.

I don't think the concept is very hard to describe, but I do appreciate that implementing it within the existing subtitle framework may be difficult/impossible (I don't have a grasp of the code complexity underlying it all).

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:21

MrQuade wrote:...
2) A new setting (or leverage an existing setting) for "Preferred global subtitle language - English/Italian/etc/etc/etc".
...

Shouldn't it simply respect the default subtitle language settings in MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language, in particular Subtitle language selection N and Allow subtitle language to equal audio language? They give much more flexible control than just a single setting and the code is already there.

MrQuade wrote:...
6) No matter which channel you switch to or what media you play, subtitles in your preferred language will be disabled.
...

That's a bit ambiguous. You are allowed to say that subtitles are "off", it's "subtitles on" that I don't like

dRdoS7 · Post by **dRdoS7** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:25

Hi,

prl wrote:I'd prefer it if "subtitle on/off" wasn't used in the discussion, because that's not something that has much meaning in the subtitle system.

But, that's all a user wants to know about subs. Also, it's how it works when l enable/disable subs for media files via the main menu. But OK, I won't mention the War, sorry: On/Off. Zipped.

+1 to what MrQuade just wrote. Well articulated.

dRdoS7

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:27

prl wrote:
MrQuade wrote:...
2) A new setting (or leverage an existing setting) for "Preferred global subtitle language - English/Italian/etc/etc/etc".
...
Shouldn't it simply respect the default subtitle language settings in MENU>Setup>TV>Auto language, in particular Subtitle language selection N and Allow subtitle language to equal audio language? They give much more flexible control than just a single setting and the code is already there.

Yes it probably should respect an existing setting for preferred language, hence why I said "(or leverage an existing setting)".
I am mostly describing what the feature does. It is up to smarter folk such as you to figure out *how* to make the Wiz do it

.

MrQuade wrote:...
6) No matter which channel you switch to or what media you play, subtitles in your preferred language will be disabled.
...
prl wrote: That's a bit ambiguous. You are allowed to say that subtitles are "off", it's "subtitles on" that I don't like

Sorry, that was a copy and paste error. it was simply supposed to say "6) No matter which channel you switch to or what media you play, subtitles will be disabled."

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:46

Anyway, difficult to implement or not, it's at least a very good start on something that might be an enhancement request in the issue tracker.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:07

Just to be a bit of devil's advocate, how much of a priority is this enhancement and is time spent on it taking time away from more requested or need changes?

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:15

I imagine when it makes it into the issue tracker it will just go in the queue of stuff to do. I'm not sure it would be high on the priority list unless the changes turned out to be trivial.

Perhaps we should create a sticky thread in this forum that simply ranks the top 20 or so most popular feature requests from the issue tracker. Make it a way to gauge end-user interest in the various feature requests that are floating about.

It could be structured in such a way to list "easy features" and "hard features" separately to give an indication of what sort of timescale would be required for implementation.
You could make a separate thread for bug reports/requests.

Sound useful? We could perhaps discuss what form it could take in another thread if you think it sounds like a good idea. (For instance I don't know how the actual ranking would be managed).

I guess it would be similar to the old Wishlist for the DP series managed by Madmax, but would just be a short description and link to the Issue tracker entry.

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:37

Gully wrote:Just to be a bit of devil's advocate, how much of a priority is this enhancement and is time spent on it taking time away from more requested or need changes?

It's not particularly high on my priorities, and I haven't really given much thought to how it might be implemented.

When I finish a large piece of work (like the instant recording stuff I'm doing at the moment), I just go back to the issue tracker and look for something that I think's the most useful to do and that seems to have a reasonable return on effort.

I don't know of any formal method for prioritising the issues in the issue tracker beyond the Priority ranking in the tracker (blocker/critical/major/minor/trivial). On a couple of occasions Jai has asked me to do specific things, but doesn't happen very often. There are surprisingly few open issues marked as "major" (and nothing higher). I generally only give a bug "major" if it does something like causing a crash or some other similarly obtrusive problem. There are a total of 98 open issues, so there's plenty to choose from

I think it's something that's worth putting in the issue tracker, but it's unlikely to be the next thing I work on. Others may be more interested in implementing it.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 09:21

There is, of course, no such thing as subtitles "on/off".

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 15:26

dRdoS7 wrote:BTW: know anything about switching Subtitles On/Off?

Yes, I do.

There is a user on here who annoyingly posts off topic about it all the time and seems to expect it to happen when it isn't feasible.

Oh wait, that's you.

Please stop hijacking topics, I have asked before.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 17:28

adoxa wrote:...
dRdoS7 wrote:BTW: know anything about switching Subtitles On/Off?
I guess I'm missing something here, but with my T2 remote I press Subtitles to turn 'em on and again for off.

You're seeing a long-standing grumble that keeps being repeated in irrelevant contexts.

MrQuade · Post by **MrQuade** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 17:30

adoxa wrote: I guess I'm missing something here, but with my T2 remote I press Subtitles to turn 'em on and again for off.

Subtitles cycles between all available subtitle tracks rather than switching them on and off per-se.

It is also a per-service setting.

dRdoS7 wants it changed so that short-pressing SUB will toggle subtitles on and off for his preferred language across all services.

Edited: Sorry Grumpy_Geoff!

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