BW to MKV converstion - HD and SD filesize issue

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brisguy79
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BW to MKV converstion - HD and SD filesize issue

Post by brisguy79 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 20:09

Hopefully someone can help. I want to be able to convert recordings from my BW P1 to a format that allows for a much reduced file size and also a format that is playable from a USB drive either back through the BW, or on various computer equipment most likely using VLC player or similar.

I've been able to create suitably compressed MKV files from DVDs I own using DVDfab to create an ISO and then using Handbrake to convert to MKV (preserving the 5.1 track just in case, something that can't be done with MP4). I was only taking the main movie track, no extra features etc, and was averaging about 33-40% of the original ISO file size across 100+ movies. I found this a good balance of file size vs quality.

I thought a similar process would work for my BW files. I had a 3hr show that was recorded in HD and used WizFX to create the TS file which was 14GB. Using the same setting in Handbrake as I had done for DVD movies. The 14GB file increased when converted to MKV to about 16-18GB. I then tried again, using DVD Flick to convert the TS file to an ISO ready for buring to single layer DVD (4.3GB). Conversion was fine. Converting this ISO through Handbrake using the same settings and I ended up with a larger file again, of 5.5GB.

Any suggestions for how I can get the file size smaller from these recordings? I haven't experimented with BW recordings in Standard Def yet but can envisage a similar issue happening regardless of the SD/HD source.

If the full details of the settings of any of the source/output files are required I can post these from mediainfo but won't in my opening post.

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Post by IanSav » Sat Jul 14, 2012 00:28

Hi Brisguy79,

To reduce the file size you will need to improve the compression or reduce the resolution.

As the Beyonwiz recordings are already in MPEG2 format the next best compression would be to move to MPEG4. The current resolution will depend on the channel you are recording. Any resolution reduction will be a choice for you to make.

In either case you will be reprocessing the data stream so you can expect the process to take time and may suffer from quality reduction.

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Re: BW to MKV converstion - HD and SD filesize issue

Post by raymondjpg » Sat Jul 14, 2012 08:56

brisguy79 wrote:I thought a similar process would work for my BW files. I had a 3hr show that was recorded in HD and used WizFX to create the TS file which was 14GB. Using the same setting in Handbrake as I had done for DVD movies. The 14GB file increased when converted to MKV to about 16-18GB. I then tried again, using DVD Flick to convert the TS file to an ISO ready for buring to single layer DVD (4.3GB). Conversion was fine. Converting this ISO through Handbrake using the same settings and I ended up with a larger file again, of 5.5GB.

Any suggestions for how I can get the file size smaller from these recordings? I haven't experimented with BW recordings in Standard Def yet but can envisage a similar issue happening regardless of the SD/HD source.
I haven't used DVD Flick, but it looks like it automatically calculates bitrate to fit the output to a DVD.

You can further reduce the size of the ISO output by DVD Flick, using DVD Shrink 3.2.0.15. Make sure that you download the freeware version. Experiment with Custom Ratio compression settings to get to an ISO size that works for you.
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Post by netmask » Sat Jul 14, 2012 09:04

What settings or profile are you using in Handbrake?
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Post by netmask » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:48

Re your BW files - instead of using Handbrake which in recent versions has dropped the ability to choose an output file size.

VidCoder https://vidcoder.codeplex.com/ is a newer alternative to Handbrake and uses the Handbrake engine but is quicker in processing time and gives good results in DVD to MKV conversion.. You can select the output size of the MKV or mp4 file you want. So it's just a matter of loading your BW TS file into VidCoder and select the output size you want.
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Post by brisguy79 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 14:32

Thanks for the repies. The settings from media info for the MKV file that is 5.3gB (source was 4.3GB ISO) are as follows. Thanks for the suggestion about the HAndbrake alternative. I did use the program initially when testing but went for the varied file size option in Handbrake as it seemed more logical after reading some articles, but it's a possibility to return to it for these recordings possibly.. Any other suggestions after reading the below? The MPEG4 response was interesting. I see it is an option in Handbrake, but don't know what the pros/cons will be although happy to experiment. I was led to believe that H.264 was the way to go?


General
Unique ID : 284327187054528355287092021164783355569 (0xD5E76CA28A5C0BA315AAFA2727B6C6B1)
Complete name : E:\_DVD conversions\_completed\Dvd.mkv
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 2
File size : 5.28 GiB
Duration : 3h 9mn
Overall bit rate : 3 984 Kbps
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.6
Writing library : libmkv 0.6.5

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L3.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 3h 9mn
Bit rate : 3 713 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.358
Stream size : 4.92 GiB (93%)
Writing library : x264 core 120
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=hex / subme=2 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=10 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=19.5 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=3 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Color primaries : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : A_AC3
Duration : 3h 9mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 260 MiB (5%)
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No

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Post by netmask » Sat Jul 14, 2012 14:51

I'm not sure that you are not double processing from your original post? You can convert direct from DVD to mkv in DVDFab depending on which version you have. I have the full suite paid for and a lifetime licence they offered a 2 years ago - a good buy. Check and see if you have the DVD to MKV option.

Do you want to burn to disc? So the need for a standard file length for DVD-R etc ?

It just seemed odd to me that you converted something to ISO and then used that file to convert to mkv?
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Post by brisguy79 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 14:59

I have the free version of DVDFab (DVDfabHD?), so can only convert to ISO using it, much like DVDShrink..
No need for me to burn to DVD or have standard file length. I'm just trying to maintain reasonable quality of digital video (DVDs and BW recordings) whilst reducing as much as practicable the amount of HDD space that the content takes up. I had good results with DVDs and was able to reduce this from about 1TB down to 400GB. I wasn't using fixed file size, so movies of similar length have come out at different file sizes but the quality is constant (I think?).

Hoping to achieve the same with my BW recordings but if I can get the ISO to 4.3gb and then the MKV is larger it doesn't seem right. I used the convert to ISO as a middle step as when I did TS to MKV I went from 14GB to about 18GB I think.

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Post by netmask » Sat Jul 14, 2012 15:43

The increase in size is possibly to do with the profile you are selecting in Handbrake - which profile did you use? Also the files size you report from the BW 14GB is this one program unedited? ie commercials left in and or several consecutive programs? You could reduce the size considerably if you edited out commercials etc.
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Post by brisguy79 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 18:25

Sorry for not replying sooner. I use a custom profile in Handbrake with the following settings:

MKV Container

Picture Tab:
Anamorphic: Strict
Cropping: Auto

Video Tab:
Video Codec - H.264
FPS: Same as source
Variable Framerate
Constant Quality RF19.5

Audio Tab:
AC3 Passthru (preserves any 5.1 from DVD recordings but have left it instead of AAC for now)
Sample rate 48
Bitrate 160

The 14GB sample file is one program, commercial free, recorded on a HD channel without commercials. Whilst this is a HD recording I'll also have instances where the recording was from an SD channel, but I'm hoping the solution to my current example file will be transferable to an SD sourced recording also.

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Post by netmask » Mon Jul 16, 2012 18:51

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Post by brisguy79 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 17:15

Thanks netmask. I've updated Handbrake to the new version, although I was running the previous version having only installed the program a few weeks ago. I can't see how updating will affect the issue I am having though? Am I missing something?

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Post by netmask » Tue Jul 17, 2012 18:03

Update info just for information only - nothing implied!

Re BW and MKV, it really only plays very basic MKV's reliably beyond 720p. I do have a few 1920 x 720 that are ok but the bitrate is fairly low and ref frames are either 1 or 2 max with ac3 audio.

I came to the conclusion 12 months ago or so that it was a waste of time trying to convert and or modify files for the BW, the hardware is just too old to cut it. That's why I bought a Popcorn C200 for all my file playback needs. The BW is a great PVR and that's really all I use it for now.

They need to release a new model quickly with all the bells and whistles to stay relevant IMO.
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Post by brisguy79 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 21:58

Sorry for the confusion. I take your point about the BW and MKV playback ability but I've been happy enough with it for the conversions I've done of movies from DVD. Predominatly I'll be plaing the MKV files on a computer or other device other than the BW.

It's just the filesize compression that I'm grappling with for recordings done on the BW and the best settings since the settings I have been using for DVD to MKV doesn't seem to give the same reduction in file size when the source in a BW file, and it actually increases the file size! Frustrating, but I am hoping someone has either done this with MKV or at least with MP$ as both are just a container and it's the other settings that I need assistance with. MP$ would be pefectly okay also.

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Post by netmask » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:46

For BW files the best setting in Handbrake is the Normal template. If the source is HD then still using the normal template increase the video to 1280 x 720
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Post by Grumpy_Geoff » Wed Jul 18, 2012 17:59

brisguy79 wrote:It's just the filesize compression that I'm grappling with for recordings done on the BW and the best settings since the settings I have been using for DVD to MKV doesn't seem to give the same reduction in file size when the source in a BW file, and it actually increases the file size! Frustrating, but I am hoping someone has either done this with MKV or at least with MP$ as both are just a container and it's the other settings that I need assistance with. MP$ would be pefectly okay also.
I preface this post by saying I've only been converting for the last month.

video.NET may assist, it can take a .ts file and output as MKV or MP4. I've been using its '.avi' sibling avi.NET to convert 'Wiz recordings for later playback on the 'Wiz (my 3 year old doesn't appear to notice the resolution difference). I find the resultant MKV/MP4 file is a bit 'laggy' when skipping during playback from my desktop over my wired network - thus the reason I still use avi.NET to convert to .avi as I don't notice any lag with that file type/container. Both programs allow a target file size.

http://www.clonead.co.uk/
http://www.videohelp.com/tools/video.NET
http://www.videohelp.com/tools/avi.NET

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Post by brisguy79 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 18:48

Sorry for the late reply. I tried the Normal setting in Handbrake on a SD and a HD test file. I'm still not getting satisfactory results.

HD source = 14.0GB; MKV = 15.8GB (3hrs:10min recording)
SD source = 9.1GB; MKV = 7.02GB (4hr :10min recording)

Ideally would like to get these down to about 1-1.5GB/hr in line with the results I was achieving for DVD movies.

Any ideas? Previously it was suggested to use the VideoCoder program which allows for file size as a constraint, but I'm hoping to be able to leave the file size fluid and based of bitrate and other parameters as this is apparently better?

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Post by netmask » Mon Jul 23, 2012 19:27

Are you editing the original ts file?
I always run my ts files through Projectx to get rid of errors and I edit out commercials within Projectx.
I really think you have to decide on an ultimate file size and then check if the quality is ok for your needs.
To speed up processing time you could reduce ref frames to 1

Edit: Also reading earlier posts that DVD rips produced satisfactory results, this is because whatever the original source material that was used to author the DVD would have it's bit rate constrained to 8000Kbps and the resolution to 720 x 576.

You can achieve this with the larger TS files you have if you either set up the parameters in Handbrake to produce these results or pre-process your files to make them DVD conforming. This can be done in WOMBLE - load the TS file in the time line and then in export use either the DVD PAL or NTSC template to set the parameters. It will take a long time processing. Finally the constrained file can be turned into a mkv format with Handbrake.
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Post by brisguy79 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 17:28

Sorry for resurrecting this thread after over a month. Been away and a few other things.
Good news is I have sorted out my HD recordings. I've ended up using VidCoder and setting the target size at 700MB/hr (I have to calculate this manually from the length of the recording, then input). Good results, so I'm happy.

I'm also trying this with SD recordings, but these I'm editing in ProjectX to top/tail and remove ads (haven't needed this with the HD stuff yet). I've hit a bump though as despite following the ProjectX guide on openwiki (thanks Netmask for writing it) I can't get the subsequent TS stream to run through VidCoder and it errors out after a couple of minutes.
I'm using the current version of ProjectX (0.91.0) which looks to differ from that used to write the guide a while ago, but I've used the same settings and left the additional ones in the current version as default.
I've checked under Presettings > Video, and the 'bitrate value in first sequence' setting is for '2' for SD as per the guide. I even tried '3' (HD) just in case although the recording I am dealign with is from ABC1 so should be SD. I've also deselected 'demux' and selected 'to TS' under the settings in the process window (click 'prepare' from the main window).

I've tried the unedited TS file (generated by wizfx) and had no issues in VidCoder. I noticed with the failed version though that the source info in VidCoder lists the audio as Deutsch (English in the original TS), and that under Settings > Video there is a 0 in the avg bitrate window below target size, but this number normally populates and changes with a successful TS file.

Any ideas what setting/s I've stuffed in ProjectX?

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Post by netmask » Thu Aug 30, 2012 20:22

Using ProjectX it is best to select the demux option. This will give you separate audio, subtitle and video tracks. This option also cleans up most file errors. The other options don't have the same error correction abilities. You will then have to mud the audio and video back together before using Vidcoder. The subtitle sort track remains as an external track.

There are no operational changes from the version I illustrated and the latest as long as the pre settings are observed. When you use "to TS" mode it will revert to German as you observed. I haven't found a setting that will stop this.


PS: All of the latest updates are to accommodate German PVR's so there is no point updating.
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Post by brisguy79 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 20:44

Thanks NEtmast. What software do you use (hopefully freeware), to remux the audio/video streams after using ProjectX to recreate a TS file that VidCoder can handle?

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Post by netmask » Thu Aug 30, 2012 20:51

I use Womble actually and use the automatic setting - just lay the video in the video timeline and the audio in it's time line and export. If you want to be really fussy you can select in export DVD PAL and then it sets the mpeg2 file to 8000 which is DVD conforming.

Back to ProjectX in "To TS" mode the subtitle page is overwritten to page 258 so no English (Australian TV page 801 are decoded or kept)

If you haven't got Womble then you can use MPEGStreamclip (even tho' it doesn't mention remux) Just put the audio and video in a folder with nothing else making sure they have the same name and select "convert to mpeg" and mpegstreamclip will pick up the audio
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Post by netmask » Thu Aug 30, 2012 21:39

Just remembered this cropped up sometime ago and if you select PIDFilter as output it will output a TS file and it will recognise English as the language - no error corrections however. It maintains the subtitle track within the TS file and should show up in VLC. Worth a try if you don't want to go through the whole demux process (but still my preferred method)
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Post by brisguy79 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 18:50

Thanks for the headsup. Since your post I've been experimenting and getting good results at last! Working on 700mb/hr.
I ended up using the PIDFilter setting that you suggested and it worked well. I've had instances with recordings made from the 1HD channel from a few years ago that don't turn out with decent quality at all. Not sure why yet. I've even tried demux in ProjectX and then remux through StreamClip as per a prevous post in this thread. No joy. ProjectX video output is set for option 3 (HDTV) and other HD content from other channels has turned out well. I compared good outputs with the crap ones using Media info, and whilst there are inconsistencies these appear to be across the board and not a good/bad recording difference that I can draw a conclusion from as they are all various resolutions but a consistent frame rate.

Still overall I'm really happy that I've got a resolution and process to save a lot of storage space by converting all my content.

If anyone wants to see the media info files for a good and then a bad quality conversion they are as follows:

Good:


General
Complete name : E:\_DVD conversions\_completed\Coast_Sep.16.2011_19.30[filter].mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 653 MiB
Duration : 51mn 36s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 1 770 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-02 20:28:40
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-02 20:43:46
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.8 2012072200

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L3.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 51mn 36s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1 603 Kbps
Width : 1 274 pixels
Height : 718 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Minimum frame rate : 1.987 fps
Maximum frame rate : 250.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.035
Stream size : 592 MiB (91%)
Writing library : x264 core 120
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=hex / subme=2 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=500 / keyint_min=50 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=10 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=1603 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=3 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-02 20:28:40
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-02 20:43:46
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 51mn 35s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 160 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 211 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -70ms
Stream size : 59.0 MiB (9%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-02 20:28:40
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-02 20:43:45




Bad:


General
Complete name : E:\_DVD conversions\_completed\Cycling-2009 WC.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 2.80 GiB
Duration : 4h 5mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 1 635 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-02 11:56:59
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-02 12:47:03
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.8 2012072200

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 4h 5mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1 480 Kbps
Width : 1 440 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Minimum frame rate : 2.835 fps
Maximum frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.038
Stream size : 2.53 GiB (90%)
Writing library : x264 core 120
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=hex / subme=2 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=10 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=1480 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=3 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-02 11:56:59
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-02 12:47:03
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 4h 5mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 152 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 323 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -170ms
Stream size : 266 MiB (9%)
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-02 11:56:59
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-02 12:47:03

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