IceTV????

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 00:10

Have a look here for some details.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 06:58

peteru wrote: The T3 does this out of the box with AutoTimers. It can also update and track the timers. If the networks change stuff around, it will adjust things and pretty much keep up with the changes up to the point where an event starts.

If you happen to have padding turned on, the T3 will help you out by putting in bookmarks in the spots where a show starts. I have found that this can be very accurate. For example, on GO! the bookmarks are to the nearest second.

AutoTimers are very powerful and flexible and can do advanced things that may address the same needs as IceTV. AutoTimers just use a different way.

Looks like a powerful application. But how does it differentiate between first runs and repeats. Also, how would I communicate with the T3 from outside my home?

Lex200 · Post by **Lex200** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 15:23

I spoke to the guy who answered the phone at IceTV yesterday.
He said there was no ETA but he expected an announcement soon about the T3 and Ice support. When asked if the announcement would be good news, he responded positively.
Makes me more tempted to order before the deadline - but still wary.

snuke · Post by **snuke** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 16:23

Lex200 wrote:Makes me more tempted to order before the deadline - but still wary.

Personally I think it is inevitable. All parties will benefit from it.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 21:59

snuke wrote:Personally I think it is inevitable. All parties will benefit from it.

Apparently not! This was just posted on the IceTV website by the CEO;

"Following 5 weeks of negotiations with Beyonwiz, we could not agree on acceptable commercial terms for the integration of IceTV with the Beyonwiz T3.

There are now three options for Beyonwiz fans:

1) Express your views to Beyonwiz at http://www.digitaltradingco.com.au/dpg_contact.asp
2) Consider alternative brands...............

We remain committed to Beyonwiz' current models and continue to market them on our online store. Our IceTV interface continues to be open to every PVR brand represented in Australia, including Beyonwiz. However, it is the vendor's choice to take up that integration offer."

I've edited it to remove stuff not related to Beyonwiz. I don't know why they couldn't come to an agreement, but it means I almost certainly won't be getting one.
Bloody shame!!

blonk · Post by **blonk** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 22:42

Interesting how they seem to imply that only Beyonwiz will suffer without IceTV. I've preordered a T3 and am pretty sure I'll survive without IceTV. So for my circumstances, they will lose out. It's all too easy to acquire missed episodes (legally) these days, so I think they're both shooting each other in the foot.

Blonk

snuke · Post by **snuke** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 23:00

Well that is me for sure not buying a T3, too many issues with the T3s Auto Timers to get them vaguely close to what I would want.
I guess I will be looking at the Ice TV unit in October unless Digital Trading can work it out with Ice.

Agreed, this is not good for either party. As Beyonwiz are now non-existent in traditional retailers, I think it hurts them more.
We have already seen Wiz forum members cancel their orders due to Ice uncertainty, I expect to see more now, and this should be good feedback to Digital Trading.

Roger · Post by **Roger** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 07:01

I'd preordered assuming that IceTV was inevitable. I don't think I'll cancel at this late stage but I'll use it as an interim solution until October then Ebay the T3 and look at the Ice in house PVR. The T3 auto timers look good but I have an ice subscription, it is almost idiot proof - it just works, the household is familiar with it - why change? Actually now I point that out to myself- coupled with the hassle on not being able to easily play my couple of Tb of reserved S1 and P1 recordings I will cancel. Thanks everyone though -it has been fun coming back to this forum after a break of a few years.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 07:19

blonk wrote:Interesting how they seem to imply that only Beyonwiz will suffer without IceTV.

I don't understand your point. Any PVR is weakened by lack of IceTV compatibility.

I've preordered a T3 and am pretty sure I'll survive without IceTV.

I'm sure you will. PVRs don't NEED IceTV in order to work. However, the experience will be lessened by its absence - and that is the point that has been made by many of us. Current Ice users will probably not be willing to give up what they currently have. We expect new technology to give us more, not less.

Do you currently use IceTV?

blonk · Post by **blonk** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 08:26

Paul55 wrote:
I don't understand your point. Any PVR is weakened by lack of IceTV compatibility.

Yes it is, however, if I have a T3 I will not renew my IceTV subscription, if 200-300 preordered T3 owners do the same, that's a pretty large loss for IceTV.

Paul55 wrote:
Do you currently use IceTV?

Yes I do and I love it, as someone else said, it just works. Don't get me wrong, I am very disappointed about it not being available, but the availability of four tuners make the T3 more valuable than no IceTV. I'm curious if the announcement of IceTV's own PVR with quad tuners now making the T3 a direct competitor made things more expensive/difficult for Beyonwiz than it really should be? Would be nice to hear from Beyonwiz too.

Blonk

Roger · Post by **Roger** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 09:15

We aren't in a position to know who ifanyone is at fault for the negotiations breaking down (well certainly I'm not). This might be one of those situations where it makes commercial sense for both companies involved to walk away with the only loss being to the consumer. From the Beyonwiz end - why pay for a service when they know that they have an open box where sooner or later some enthusiast will write a plug in that spoofs the Ice server telling it that it is a media centre PC - all the benefits of Ice without any messy commercial arrangements? They just can't use the logo. From the IceTV end they can point to the benefits of ease of use, better integration, branding, cross promotion, established user base etc..but why would they fall over themselves to help the T3 when it is the only obvious competitor to their new venture into hardware? For users it will come down to weighing priorities - while my S1 and P1 are working with IceTV that is enough tuners for me 99.99% of the time- a new gadget would be fun but not necessary. For others I completely understand that they might forgo IceTV and go with the advantages of the T3. Its just a shame we have to make that choice. And while we are weighing up these options, looking at forums, checking specifications - none of these things may have any bearing on the buying choice of the wider public.

Flash_Gordon · Post by **Flash_Gordon** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:00

Paul55 wrote:
snuke wrote:Personally I think it is inevitable. All parties will benefit from it.
Apparently not! This was just posted on the IceTV website by the CEO;

"Following 5 weeks of negotiations with Beyonwiz, we could not agree on acceptable commercial terms for the integration of IceTV with the Beyonwiz T3.

A big shame, as the moment I would have heard the units had IceTV, I would have purchased a unit! I have had Ice too long now and the house has gotten used to it and what it can do....

We got a Topfield Masterpiece last year for the Family room (still have p2 elsewhere).....it turned out that i didn't realise it didn't have IceTV (I should have double checked this)...within 3 weeks we had sold it cheap.

We prefer Ice and any good units that have this get our attention. Sadly I am now losing attention regarding the 'wonderful' T3....

Cheers

FG

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:31

From a commercial point of view, existing IceTV users (those who have bought up years worth of subscriptions at 1/2 price or less) upgrading to a T3 are not an interesting prospect for IceTV at all. These people are not actually going to be spending any money with IceTV any time soon.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:40

Flash_Gordon wrote: We got a Topfield Masterpiece last year for the Family room (still have p2 elsewhere).....it turned out that i didn't realise it didn't have IceTV (I should have double checked this)...within 3 weeks we had sold it cheap.

The only Topfield Masterpiece I'm aware of (in the last 5 years) are the 2400 and 2460 - they both support IceTV.
There was the aborted 2470 which looks like a 2400/2460 but doesn't support IceTv but I didn't think it was called a Masterpiece. It was very poor form by Topfield and/or the marketers to not make it clear that the 2470 wasn't Ice compatible - it deserved to bomb.

Flash_Gordon · Post by **Flash_Gordon** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:27

Paul55 wrote:
Flash_Gordon wrote: We got a Topfield Masterpiece last year for the Family room (still have p2 elsewhere).....it turned out that i didn't realise it didn't have IceTV (I should have double checked this)...within 3 weeks we had sold it cheap.
The only Topfield Masterpiece I'm aware of (in the last 5 years) are the 2400 and 2460 - they both support IceTV.
There was the aborted 2470 which looks like a 2400/2460 but doesn't support IceTv but I didn't think it was called a Masterpiece. It was very poor form by Topfield and/or the marketers to not make it clear that the 2470 wasn't Ice compatible - it deserved to bomb.

My apologies, I wrote that off the top of my head......it was the TRF 2470 model. I stand corrected!

Was a great unit otherwise....we initially got it to replace the old and trusty P1, as the HDD had died.

I should have checked further at the time...as someone a short while later instructed me how to replace the HDD...which I did...and its still going!
that one was going to go into the guest bedroom, and I had visions of putting the T3 in the family room.....ahhh well.

Cheers

FG

Javelyn · Post by **Javelyn** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:48

Just to add to the other posters here (I hope BW and IceTV are reading these posts) I won't be upgrading to the T3 if it doesn't support IceTV, unless I have no choice with my current units of Beyonwizzies. I'll continue to use my S1 and two P2s, even though means sending them to Perth for repairs through Mark (Warkus).

Jav

Holden · Post by **Holden** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 05:26

I too am disappointed with this outcome I have been following the T3 discussion and was looking at upgrading from my P1
I have almost 2 years of IceTV subscription so no unless the T3 has IceTV unfortunately I will not be getting one

I might hang out and see if the IceCube machine ever eventuates

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 07:35

Would it be feasible for Beyonwiz to offer the T3 in Ice and non-Ice versions? This should satisfy all potential customers and provide transparency about the cost of IceTV licensing.

netmask · Post by **netmask** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 07:38

On the old Topfield 5000 one could download EPG data from various sites and load the info in.... This was back when the stations only xmitted now and next data.. Just wondering if this would be possible with the T3? Personally the station EPG serves all my needs and the way I use my current P1. So I have no use for 3rd part EPG suppliers.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 08:58

netmask wrote:On the old Topfield 5000 one could download EPG data from various sites and load the info in....

Interesting thought for IceTV subscribers. We are limited to 4 interactive devices, but no restrictions on non-interactive. This means an Ice subscriber can retrieve .xml data which DOES contain the [RPT] flag.
Added to the T3 capabilities, this should enable proper series recording capability. Unfortunately, it still doesn't allow the simplicity and flexibility of an interactive device, but it opens up some new possibilities.
Is what I'm suggesting achievable via a plug in??

bpratt · Post by **bpratt** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 09:47

Roger wrote: From the Beyonwiz end - why pay for a service when they know that they have an open box where sooner or later some enthusiast will write a plug in that spoofs the Ice server telling it that it is a media centre PC - all the benefits of Ice without any messy commercial arrangements?

This is possibly the answer to icetv on the T3,

Some clever cookie who writes something to pretend to the icetv server that it is a DP-P2, then handles the conversion 'in-house' so to speak, and voila it's icetv on the T3.

Since it wouldn't be Beyonwiz who has written it, but some third party, then icetv can't do anything about it on the legal front, or even stop it as it would also affect those with a P2 who legally gets for their P2 boxes.

I sure hope that someone can write something up fairly quickly for the T3 though.

Just guessing here, and it's already been mentioned earlier, that the possible reason why there wasn't an agreement made between the two companies, might have something to do with the T3 is direct competiition with the new icetv box to be released later this year, and extra demands might have been put in place on Beyonwiz to pay a whole lot more than what it was when there was only the old P2's and others.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:53

bpratt wrote:... then icetv can't do anything about it on the legal front. ...

Really? Not for breaking their T & C? The end user I mean here, not Beyonwiz.

For instance:

IceTV T&C wrote:Copyright and all other intellectual property rights in the Content belong to IceTV. The license granted in this Agreement does not give you any right to deal with the Content and, in particular, you must not: (a) use the Content to provide a service to a third party; (b) make available to anyone hard copy or electronic versions of the Content (including on CD ROM, DVD or as an email attachment or as a shareable or downloadable file); (c) reverse engineer any of the Content (including the format in which the Content is delivered) and/or IceTV Software or by any means create data which is the same or substantially similar to the Content or its format; (d) remove, alter or obscure any notice, logo, trade mark or identifying mark from the Content accessed or produced by IceTV or any reproduction of that Content; (e) without written permission from IceTV, use the content with any software or device that is not listed by IceTV as supported software or device (f) use the Content for any commercial and non-personal purposes; and (g) do or permit any further activity which IceTV notifies you from time to time is contrary to its interests.

[my emphasis]

netmask · Post by **netmask** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 13:48

There are probably still a number of other sources of EPG on the web other than having to illegally fiddle with IceTV who have done a lot to make the stations transmit a real EPG other than the original sad now and next offering in the early days. Personally I think a campaign directed at the stations to get their EPG up to date with rpt flags etc. how about a signal to indicate running time has changed etc etc....

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 14:01

netmask wrote:... IceTV who have done a lot to make the stations transmit a real EPG other than the original sad now and next offering in the early days. ...

I originally bought IceTV so that I could get a 7-day EPG on the commercial services, rather than the three days that was then in the broadcast EPG.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 15:11

netmask wrote: a campaign directed at the stations to get their EPG up to date with rpt flags etc.

You are giving them too much benefit of the doubt. They don't want the viewer to have this information - it would interfere with their practice of deliberately bastardising the program times to manipulate the viewing public. They already have the ability to send the [RPT] flag - in fact, it's my understanding that this information is stripped from the broadcast data.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 15:30

As much as I love IceTV and what it gives me, there often are missing repeat flags that I have to manually deal with. So in that respect autotimers might not be much worse.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 15:38

Gully wrote:As much as I love IceTV and what it gives me, there often are missing repeat flags that I have to manually deal with. So in that respect autotimers might not be much worse.

As far as I could see, there were no repeat flags in the T3 EPG for any programs on ABC or SBS. IceTV, for all its faults, is a run-away winner on this.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 15:54

Gully wrote:As much as I love IceTV and what it gives me, there often are missing repeat flags that I have to manually deal with.

Often?? I record hundreds of shows and can't recall the last time it happened to me. I have seen instances reported on the IceTV forum, but they are rectified very soon after.

bpratt · Post by **bpratt** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 15:55

prl wrote:
bpratt wrote:... then icetv can't do anything about it on the legal front. ...
Really? Not for breaking their T & C? The end user I mean here, not Beyonwiz.

It was Beyonwiz I was talking about at the time.

For instance:
IceTV T&C wrote:Copyright and all other intellectual property rights in the Content belong to IceTV. The license granted in this Agreement does not give you any right to deal with the Content and, in particular, you must not: (a) use the Content to provide a service to a third party; (b) make available to anyone hard copy or electronic versions of the Content (including on CD ROM, DVD or as an email attachment or as a shareable or downloadable file); (c) reverse engineer any of the Content (including the format in which the Content is delivered) and/or IceTV Software or by any means create data which is the same or substantially similar to the Content or its format; (d) remove, alter or obscure any notice, logo, trade mark or identifying mark from the Content accessed or produced by IceTV or any reproduction of that Content; (e) without written permission from IceTV, use the content with any software or device that is not listed by IceTV as supported software or device (f) use the Content for any commercial and non-personal purposes; and (g) do or permit any further activity which IceTV notifies you from time to time is contrary to its interests.
[my emphasis]

Oh bother said pooh !

But should someone do it, then it wouldn't be Beyonwiz that would be in legal strife. I'm not real sure that icetv would send out nasty letters to those that did use a hack to get the icetv program guide that the user paid for working on a T3 though.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 16:27

Paul55 wrote:Often?? I record hundreds of shows and can't recall the last time it happened to me. I have seen instances reported on the IceTV forum, but they are rectified very soon after.

At least 2-3 a week recently. And yes they will fix it if reported but that is still manual intervention.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 16:53

bpratt wrote:...
But should someone do it, then it wouldn't be Beyonwiz that would be in legal strife. I'm not real sure that icetv would send out nasty letters to those that did use a hack to get the icetv program guide that the user paid for working on a T3 though.

They might easily go after anyone who distributed software to do it. And as the T&C clearly says, IceTV only regards use on supported devices as having been paid for.

Raid · Post by **Raid** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 17:03

Many years ago there was a program called Backchat that help viewers understand the industry. A number of viewers complained about the use of the term Repeat in the TV guide.

The show explained that if a program has not been shown on that TV station, in that broadcast area, it can be called a first run.

So if the ABC was to buy the rights to Lost in Space (the TV series) they don't have to call it a repeat.

bpratt · Post by **bpratt** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 17:05

Nothing wrong with a bit of wishful thinking for some sort of icetv on the T3.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 18:05

Raid wrote:Many years ago there was a program called Backchat that help viewers understand the industry. A number of viewers complained about the use of the term Repeat in the TV guide.

The show explained that if a program has not been shown on that TV station, in that broadcast area, it can be called a first run.

So if the ABC was to buy the rights to Lost in Space (the TV series) they don't have to call it a repeat.

That description of "repeat" doesn't really seem do describe common practice in the Australian TV industry. E.g. 7TWO is listing Foyle's War as a repeat, though I don't think it's been shown on 7TWO before. Mind you, listening to 7TWO's promos might lead you to believe that they showed almost exclusively first run programs

The ABC flags things as repeats in their own online guide. That flagging doesn't seem to be carried in the ABC's broadcast EPG, at least not in a way that can be used by autotimers.

Anyway, Backchat wasn't really a program to "help viewers understand the industry". It was Tim Bowden answering ABC viewers' complaints, usually quite entertainingly.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 13:35

Decided to move the posts discussing repairs to DP series to its own topic

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7621

Please post there and let's keep this about IceTV.

Roger · Post by **Roger** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:44

Oh the irony. Last week I cancelled my preordered t3 in a huff because I absolutely needed iceTV and my p1and s1 were doing the job nicely thank you very much. On Thursday the S1 blew a power supply - it probably hadn't heard that I had decided not to replace it and just died of despair. For those of you who pressed on with the purchase keep the feedback coming on how you make the transition to no IceTv.

spamoff · Post by **spamoff** » Thu May 08, 2014 23:41

Add me to the list of people not getting T3 without Icetv.

Pity - I was really excited and about to hit the purchase button until I saw that IceTV isn't compatible...

m

fistworthy · Post by **fistworthy** » Sun May 11, 2014 01:06

spamoff wrote:Add me to the list of people not getting T3 without Icetv.

Looks like the P2 & Lite are my last BW also.

Wayne · Post by **Wayne** » Sun May 11, 2014 08:19

spamoff wrote:Add me to the list of people not getting T3 without Icetv.

Well when I turn off my P2 and the T3 takes over there'll be no reason to continue my Ice account without the support for the T3.

BikeMike · Post by **BikeMike** » Sun May 11, 2014 10:07

I agree with Wayne; after playing with the T3 for a week on the latest firmware I think it's advantages far outweigh the lack of IceTV. The auto-timers work just as well (except for repeats). I won't be renewing my IceTV subscription unless Ice agree to allow the T3 to connect, or someone writes an unofficial plugin to bypass the restriction. Even then I might drop it if there's no more discount deals coming, I don't think it's worth more than $49 a year to us.

There are some situations where IceTV can't do what I want, and auto-timers can.
eg. To record "Star Trek - Next Generation". Most days it's on twice, sometimes four times. The times vary +/- a couple of hours, but either the early morning or the evening episodes can be ignored (they are repeated the same day, but ALL episodes are tagged as repeats). IceTV just has an "only at this time" option but it doesn't allow "within a few hours of this time" which auto-timers can do.

To those who cancelled their order because of IceTV; while I respect your decision, I'm glad I didn't.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sun May 11, 2014 10:11

Wayne wrote:Well when I turn off my P2 and the T3 takes over there'll be no reason to continue my Ice account without the support for the T3.

I'm a big IceTV fan - both the product and what they've done for PVR users by standing up to Channel 9. Reading these forums, I can see that the T3 can cover many of the deficiencies caused by the FTA EPG. However, IMO, there are still some reasons why IceTV is worth having.
Major benefits are the ability to differentiate between first runs and repeats and the ease of remote timer settings. It seems the T3 will require a dynamic DNS account (not free nowadays) to provide access from outside the home network. I frequently use my smartphone, tablet or laptop to set recordings when I'm away from home. The setting of timers from within the home network is also very mature via IceTV - and hopefully will become so on the T3.

BikeMike · Post by **BikeMike** » Sun May 11, 2014 10:56

Yes setting recordings while away is a cool feature and nice to have, but I've only ever used it a couple of times. Setting timers from my PC or phone while watching TV is much more the norm.

I would like to see a T3 web/app interface for auto-timers, currently I can only set normal timers from the EPG via web or android apps. And typing via the remote control is crap, thinking of getting a mini wireless keyboard for that (works ok with a standard usb keyboard)

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun May 11, 2014 11:06

Paul55 wrote:It seems the T3 will require a dynamic DNS account (not free nowadays) to provide access from outside the home network. I frequently use my smartphone, tablet or laptop to set recordings when I'm away from home.

If you have a static IP you can use that instead and it works, Best done with some Port Forwarding to give you some degree of security.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Sun May 11, 2014 11:25

Gully wrote:If you have a static IP you can use that instead and it works, Best done with some Port Forwarding to give you some degree of security.

AFAIK, this isn't available through many ISPs.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Sun May 11, 2014 11:43

Paul55 wrote:
Gully wrote:If you have a static IP you can use that instead and it works, Best done with some Port Forwarding to give you some degree of security.
AFAIK, this isn't available through many ISPs.

It is through mine but I agree, just highlighting another alternative that people may have.

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Sun May 11, 2014 12:52

Paul55 wrote:a dynamic DNS account (not free nowadays)

There are plenty of free dynamic DNS providers and finding them is not hard. See here for a round up: Best Free Dynamic DNS Services

oster · Post by **oster** » Mon May 12, 2014 23:09

No icetv, no t3 for me. Was just waiting for confirmation. Or I could dump my 2 beyonwiz and icetv and rethink...

dumbthumbs · Post by **dumbthumbs** » Tue May 13, 2014 19:29

I sent a message to IceTV explaining that if I don't get support for T3 I won't be re-subscribing. Probably best to direct objections to them if they are the ones not supporting the T3. I thought the built in EPG was OK, but without knowing what is a first run and what is a repeat it is a real pain.

Paul55 · Post by **Paul55** » Tue May 13, 2014 21:28

dumbthumbs wrote:I sent a message to IceTV explaining that if I don't get support for T3 I won't be re-subscribing. Probably best to direct objections to them if they are the ones not supporting the T3

We don't know why negotiations between Beyonwiz and IceTV broke down - commercial-in-confidence.
There was a cryptic comment left around the time the Beyonwiz forum server crashed to effect of 'watch this space'. Maybe there is some hope that this can be resolved to the benefit of both companies.
I'm sure the addition of IceTV would result in both more Beyonwiz T3 sales and more/extended IceTV customers/subscriptions.

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