Getting recordings off my wiz (FV-L1)

Beyonwiz HD PVR / Network Media Players including Freeview models.

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allie_181
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Getting recordings off my wiz (FV-L1)

Post by allie_181 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 19:39

Hi,

I have several recordings I'd like to get off my wiz.

My wiz is networked with my computer. An external harddrive is also connected to my wiz. Both of these are accessible through my wiz and files on them are viewable through file player via my wiz (i.e. they are working fine).

I loaded file player and navigated to the 'Recordings' folder and located the files I want to get off. I then pressed the pop-up menu and tried both 'copy' and 'move' options but the only option given was to move/copy them to HDD - neither network or USB were given as options and I don't understand why.

I turned my wiz off and on again but that didn't resolve the problem. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks in advance
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Post by netmask » Sun Jul 11, 2010 19:56

You have the Freeview model and they are restricted according to the Freeview agreement. ie you can't copy to an external source. Well covered in the forum and other forums. Basically Freeview is crippleware.
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Post by allie_181 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 20:02

Cr@p. That's not what they told me when I bought it at Harvey Norman :-( Grrrr. Geez that's annoying!!!! I'm going to return it.

Do all the other wiz models allow you to get files off them?

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Post by crippstor » Sun Jul 11, 2010 20:41

Yes they do
DP-P1 in the lounge, DP-H1 in the master bedroom. Happy kids and Mrs Crippstor all around, and if Santa Beyonwiz brings out a new model, the P1 to the bedroom and the H1 to the man shed

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Post by allie_181 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 21:00

So I'm trying to work out which to get now. (It would be really helpful if they had a comparison table on the beyonwiz website comparing each of their models).

I'm looking at the DP-Lite ($496 at JB) or the DP-P2 ($696 at JB). I can't see much difference between the 2.

Can they both network with a PC? (I have avi files on my PC. Currently my FV-L1 is connected to my modem via an ethernet cable, and my laptop connects wirelessly to my modem, so my FV-L1 can access files on my laptop via my network.)

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Post by Gully » Sun Jul 11, 2010 21:27

They both network.

Main differences are the Lite has no display on the front of the unit and card reader and USB on the front, the P2 has analog inputs.

Have a look at the beyonwiz or WizTV websites for complete specs.
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Post by allie_181 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 21:32

Gully wrote:They both network.

Main differences are the Lite has no display on the front of the unit and card reader and USB on the front, the P2 has analog inputs.

Have a look at the beyonwiz or WizTV websites for complete specs.
Thanks, that's what I thought when I looked at the specs on the wiz website. I just thought there had to be something more that I was missing, but obviously not. Cool, I'll go for the Lite. Thanks :D

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Post by netmask » Sun Jul 11, 2010 21:43

Just remember that neither the Lite or P2 with current firmware will play ISO files or VIDEO_TS folder playback over a network.
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Post by download » Sun Jul 11, 2010 22:05

netmask wrote:You have the Freeview model and they are restricted according to the Freeview agreement. ie you can't copy to an external source.
Freeview wrote some rules. Copying to an external source is not one f them. That's a BW 'rule'.

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Post by peteru » Sun Jul 11, 2010 22:07

neither the Lite or P2 with current firmware will play ISO files
Neither will the Freeview model, so no loss there.

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Post by peteru » Sun Jul 11, 2010 22:10

download wrote:Freeview wrote some rules. Copying to an external source is not one f them. That's a BW 'rule'.
I am going to say that you are wrong on that. Unless you can substantiate that statement with some solid information, you are just guessing.

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Post by allie_181 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 22:23

netmask wrote:Just remember that neither the Lite or P2 with current firmware will play ISO files or VIDEO_TS folder playback over a network.
Thanks, that's OK. I'm really only concerned with avi's. If I have ISOs or VIDEO_TS I generally burn them to dvd anyway.

Appreciate the feedback and comments. Now I'm hanging out til 9am tomorrow morning when Harvey Norman opens so I can return the FV-L1. I'm just annoyed that I'm going to lose some programs that I've recorded on it that I was hoping to keep. It annoys me sooo much when I specifically asked about this feature the Harvey Norman salesman assured me it could do this and now it turns out he was wrong. Frustrating! Given how irritated I am HN better not make my life difficult when I return it :evil: (I know I'm legally entitled to return it as it isn't fit for the purpose that I made known to them and is is only a few weeks old.)

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Post by tonymy01 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 00:15

peteru wrote:
download wrote:Freeview wrote some rules. Copying to an external source is not one f them. That's a BW 'rule'.
I am going to say that you are wrong on that. Unless you can substantiate that statement with some solid information, you are just guessing.
Exactly, and the Tivo.. the usual thing brought up to supposedly substantiate an argument like PeterG's has DRM and can't have recordings downoaded off it without first purchasing essentially a key (and more than likely the drm embedded in subsequnent downloads such that if a recording is found on the net they will know it is from you).
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Post by download » Mon Jul 12, 2010 08:54

peteru wrote:I am going to say that you are wrong on that. Unless you can substantiate that statement with some solid information, you are just guessing.
Exactly, and the Tivo.. the usual thing brought up to supposedly substantiate an argument like PeterG's has DRM and can't have recordings downoaded off it without first purchasing essentially a key
What's 'supposed' about it? Its a Freeview machine and you can download content and transfer it to other devices and media. I never said it didn't have strings attached, I just said banning offloading content is not a Freeview restriction and quite patently it isn't. FWIW The fact that Tivo charge a fee to purchase the capability/software is neither here nor there.

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Post by peteru » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:54

Without breaching any confidentiality agreements, all I can say that there are Freeview "rules" about content storage and transfer and the Beyonwiz complies with those rules.

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Post by prl » Mon Jul 12, 2010 13:55

peteru wrote:Without breaching any confidentiality agreements, all I can say that there are Freeview "rules" about content storage and transfer and the Beyonwiz complies with those rules.
And so, presumably, does TiVo. :)

Unfortunately, the statement, while strictly accurate, doesn't actually advance our knowledge. However, I know that you probably can't say more without running foul of the NDA.

I really can't comprehend why Freeview doesn't release the requirements (as opposed to implementation details).
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Post by netmask » Mon Jul 12, 2010 13:57

I really can't comprehend why Freeview doesn't release the requirements (as opposed to implementation details).
One word "marketing"
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Post by prl » Mon Jul 12, 2010 13:59

netmask wrote:
I really can't comprehend why Freeview doesn't release the requirements (as opposed to implementation details).
One word "marketing"
Yes, I've noticed how clear and consistent they are at that :roll:
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Post by download » Mon Jul 12, 2010 14:30

peteru wrote:Without breaching any confidentiality agreements, all I can say that there are Freeview "rules" about content storage and transfer and the Beyonwiz complies with those rules.
The BeyonWiz FV-L1 or the BeyonWiz entire range? If the former, then of course, Beyonwiz just took the lazy/quick option and simply disallowed all recordings to be taken off the machine. However just because a company has chosen this approach doesn't mean Freeview have required it.

The statement above said
are restricted according to the Freeview agreement. ie you can't copy to an external source
That is self evidently wrong (as I mentioned). I didn't say Freeview have no rules about file transfers, I didn't say Freeview machines couldn't limit, protect, stop file transfers if required, all I've said is that Freeview does allow for transfers off their machines. Do Peter or Tony believe I'm wrong in saying this?

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Post by netmask » Mon Jul 12, 2010 14:43

In practical terms the average punter can't copy files off the BW Freeview model. I don't believe discussion on what is or what isn't in any agreement or handshake really matters inasmuch as it is not going to change the present reality. Yes I know I am the arch pragmatist but you get that way post 70.. :roll:
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Post by prl » Mon Jul 12, 2010 14:47

download wrote:... I didn't say Freeview have no rules about file transfers, I didn't say Freeview machines couldn't limit, protect, stop file transfers if required, all I've said is that Freeview does allow for transfers off their machines. Do Peter or Tony believe I'm wrong in saying this?
...
If you mean this Peter, the TiVo appears to be a case of a Freeview device where it is possible to export non-DRMed recordings.

It's not clear what rules the TiVo implements, but I've read someone, perhaps Peter/(pg)download, say that the TiVo allows content to be copied off provided the PES copyright bit isn't set. Or perhaps it's for particular values of the PES copy_additional_information bits. Or perhaps something else entirely, since the copyright bit is on each PES packet.

But whatever the rules are, other manufacturers appear to have chosen to implement the Freeview restrictions in different ways from Beyonwiz.
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Post by download » Mon Jul 12, 2010 16:23

prl wrote:If you mean this Peter, the TiVo appears to be a case of a Freeview device where it is possible to export non-DRMed recordings.
I didn't say Freeview machines couldn't limit, protect, stop file transfers if required
I'd be quite certain that some form of DRM is specified by Freeview. No idea if the exported files have DRM themselves but as you can easily convert them using Video Redo I'd be inclined to say no.

IMO the "DRM" is most likely to be implemented on the Freeview machine (ie Tivo) itself whereby what can and can't be copied off the machine can be regulated by the broadcasting network. ATM (and for the foreseeable future IMO) the networks haven't taken up this option. Obviously the day the do is the day the Freeview brand stops selling :) I suspect that at some tipping point the industry will comprehensively switch over all recording and viewing devices such that unless a HDMI cable is used only SD content will be allowed out of machines unprotected. The Tivo will be able to do this easily. Not sure of any of that though or if its even feasible. Only time will tell.

All I do know is that you can legitimately offload programs from an existing Freeview PVR to a PC and then watch or burn them to a DVD.

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Post by IanSav » Mon Jul 12, 2010 16:45

Hi Peter,
download wrote:I suspect that at some tipping point the industry will comprehensively switch over all recording and viewing devices such that unless a HDMI cable is used only SD content will be allowed out of machines unprotected. The Tivo will be able to do this easily. Not sure of any of that though or if its even feasible. Only time will tell.
At the moment I am hoping that HDBaseT wins out over HDMI.

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Post by peteru » Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:00

IanSav wrote:At the moment I am hoping that HDBaseT wins out over HDMI.
What makes you think that HDCP over HDBaseT would not be implemented? After all, HDCP wasn't publicised when HDMI was introduced either. Given that Sony is involved in HDBaseT and Sony is a major content producer, you can pretty much bet that there is some form of "content protection" that will apply to HDBaseT connected gear.
Last edited by peteru on Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by prl » Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:00

download wrote:...
IMO the "DRM" is most likely to be implemented on the Freeview machine (ie Tivo) itself whereby what can and can't be copied off the machine can be regulated by the broadcasting network. ATM (and for the foreseeable future IMO) the networks haven't taken up this option. Obviously the day the do is the day the Freeview brand stops selling :) ...
Freeview-badged devices that don't allow recordings to be copied off appear to be selling OK. Beyonwiz has said on the forum that they intend bringing another Freeview badged device (presumably Freeview EPG badged) onto the market, so I expect they think that they'll still sell.

Using the Copyright bit in the PES packet header would be a bit of a pain to implement. There's a separate copyright bit for each packet in the stream. Is copying banned if a single bit in a recording is set? Does copying edit out packets with the bit set? In any case, either the recording or the copy process needs to interpret the stream content to check the bits.
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Post by tonymy01 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:22

download wrote:No idea if the exported files have DRM themselves but as you can easily convert them using Video Redo I'd be inclined to say no.
Ahh yes, but remember, the law is (supposedly) you can't circumvent DRM legally, so by doing so you have just broken the law haha (I say haha as even recording on the VCR was essentially illegal up to a few years ago).
Lets face it, without a purchased key, which is tied to your account, you cannot copy recordings off a TiVo, that is a fact.
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Post by IanSav » Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:26

Hi Peter,
peteru wrote:What makes you think that HDCP over HDBaseT would not be implemented? After all, HDCP wasn't publicised when HDMI was introduced either. Given that Sony is involved in HDBaseT and Sony is a major content producer, you can pretty much bet that there is some form of "content protection" that will apply to HDBaseT connected gear.
My comments were not about HDCP. I was more thinking about the general rip-off prices that HDMI cables attract. HDBaseT can use bog standard CAT cables. This will be a significant money saver for people.

I also get peeved off with HDMI changing the specs every few months causing a mass wave of unwanted cable and equipment upgrades. While this may happen with HDBaseT equipment at least we know the cables will stay the same. ;)

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Post by prl » Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:27

download wrote:
prl wrote:If you mean this Peter, the TiVo appears to be a case of a Freeview device where it is possible to export non-DRMed recordings.
I didn't say Freeview machines couldn't limit, protect, stop file transfers if required
I'd be quite certain that some form of DRM is specified by Freeview. No idea if the exported files have DRM themselves but as you can easily convert them using Video Redo I'd be inclined to say no.
...
I've only just realised that "this Peter" was ambiguous and that that's what Peter/download's quote was about. I meant "If you meant this Peter who is currently typing as opposed to the other Peters participating", not "If you meant this, Peter".

Sorry for any confusion :)
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Post by Paul55 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:46

download wrote:
prl wrote:If you mean this Peter, the TiVo appears to be a case of a Freeview device where it is possible to export non-DRMed recordings.
I didn't say Freeview machines couldn't limit, protect, stop file transfers if required
I'd be quite certain that some form of DRM is specified by Freeview. No idea if the exported files have DRM themselves but as you can easily convert them using Video Redo I'd be inclined to say no.

IMO the "DRM" is most likely to be implemented on the Freeview machine (ie Tivo) itself whereby what can and can't be copied off the machine can be regulated by the broadcasting network. ATM (and for the foreseeable future IMO) the networks haven't taken up this option. Obviously the day the do is the day the Freeview brand stops selling :) I suspect that at some tipping point the industry will comprehensively switch over all recording and viewing devices such that unless a HDMI cable is used only SD content will be allowed out of machines unprotected. The Tivo will be able to do this easily. Not sure of any of that though or if its even feasible. Only time will tell.

All I do know is that you can legitimately offload programs from an existing Freeview PVR to a PC and then watch or burn them to a DVD.

Regards

Peter Gillespie
Or you could just buy a non-Freeview machine and, instead of tiptoeing through the minefield, avoid it completely and let big brother know that you won't be manipulated :lol: :lol:
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Post by IanSav » Mon Jul 12, 2010 17:58

Hi Paul55,
Paul55 wrote:Or you could just buy a non-Freeview machine and, instead of tiptoeing through the minefield, avoid it completely and let big brother know that you won't be manipulated :lol: :lol:
You can also call the ACMA to complain that the Freeview EPG initiative is attempting to create a system where accurate EPG information is to be made private and only available to selected users who buy Freeview logo equipment that enforces unacceptable usage restrictions. The ACMA is meant to be supporting free and accurate EPG information for all.

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Post by prl » Mon Jul 12, 2010 18:09

IanSav wrote:Hi Paul55,
Paul55 wrote:Or you could just buy a non-Freeview machine and, instead of tiptoeing through the minefield, avoid it completely and let big brother know that you won't be manipulated :lol: :lol:
You can also call the ACMA to complain that the Freeview EPG initiative is attempting to create a system where accurate EPG information is to be made private and only available to selected users who buy Freeview logo equipment that enforces unacceptable usage restrictions. The ACMA is meant to be supporting free and accurate EPG information for all.

Regards,
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The ACMA EPG Principles says only that the EIT EPG must be implemented according to FreeTV's OP58 Implementation Guide for DVB EIT Schedule Information (EITschedule actual). The EPG principles only say that Now/Next have to reflect actual program run times (and even there it's rather ambiguous).

OP58 explicitly says that the normal EPG shouldn't be updated to accurate program run times:
Section 2.5 wrote:The accuracy of the timing information in the EITscheduleactual shall reflect the timing in the published station schedule.
[my emphasis]
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Post by Gully » Mon Jul 12, 2010 18:10

download wrote:All I do know is that you can legitimately offload programs from an existing Freeview PVR to a PC and then watch or burn them to a DVD.
Can you?

It may be technically and practicably possible that doesn't make it legitimate though.
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Post by prl » Mon Jul 12, 2010 18:16

Gully wrote:
download wrote:All I do know is that you can legitimately offload programs from an existing Freeview PVR to a PC and then watch or burn them to a DVD.
Can you?

It may be technically and practicably possible that doesn't make it legitimate though.
My (non-lawyer) reading of the Copyright Act is that it is explicitly forbidden in the Act (apart from the very limited general exemptions):
COPYRIGHT ACT 1968 - SECT 111
Recording broadcasts for replaying at more convenient time


(1) This section applies if a person makes a cinematograph film or sound recording of a broadcast solely for private and domestic use by watching or listening to the material broadcast at a time more convenient than the time when the broadcast is made.
...
(2) The making of the film or recording does not infringe copyright in the broadcast or in any work or other subject‑matter included in the broadcast.
Note: Even though the making of the film or recording does not infringe that copyright, that copyright may be infringed if a copy of the film or recording is made.
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Post by download » Mon Jul 12, 2010 20:10

Ok lots of approaches,

1) HDBaseT (IMO) is likely to be used for distributing downloaded content across larger distances. It would seem if HDMI is involved (with its limited cable run) then a device will simply use HDBaseT to transmit the HDMI signal and both devices (or convertors) will apply the HDMI protocols anyway. ie HDMI and HDBaseT will work hand in hand, not against each other.

2) I don't really believe any network will activate a "copyright flag" to stop something being recorded or transferred to a PC. That just stops a small percent of the audience and it 100% will piss off that small percent. The Freeview restrictions will apply to HD and SD content. The Tivo (and all other) software will at some point insist that only SD quality can be outputted (ie no flags just a 100% rule).

3) Yes you have to purchase a key to offload content to a PC. You actually have to purchase a "key" to run just about any bit of software these days. If you have a strong desire to record Neighbours and distribute it to the world, I'm suspecting the Tivo won't be what you use. :)

4) Yes "Peter" was ambiguous. Might have meant me even. Figured as every one was having a comment it sort of left it open to everyone (called Peter) to have a say :)

5) ACMA is a (wet) paper tiger. It has also got a pretty airy fairy EPG mandate to go with. And the networks are also providing an accurate 7 day EPG that matches every printed publication in the country. I don't see ACMA wielding a stick here.

6) Tivo is a Freeview/Network institution. I'm assuming what it allows, the network /broadcasters etc allow. Yes there might be absolute legal prohibitions on what it does, but after 20 years of "illegally" recording on a VCR I'm assuming the networks are pragmatic.

7) The copyright act is completely null and void if the holder of the rights permits you to do something with the content. It is 100% legal to record a show onto the Tivo. Tivo/Freeview have made a legal deal that allows those recordings to be offloaded to a PC/DVD. If they haven't then Tivo/Freeview itself will be liable for copyright infringement (which I don't think they will be :))

8) Many pundits see Freeview as some sort of Bogey man that will suddenly "activate" and render Freeview PVRs useless. The Oz law prohibits this. If you buy something with an advertised functionality then no secret contract Freeview clause can suddenly take that away from you. Tivo's bought today will be able to do what the do today into the future.

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Post by IanSav » Mon Jul 12, 2010 22:59

Hi Peter,
download wrote:1) HDBaseT (IMO) is likely to be used for distributing downloaded content across larger distances. It would seem if HDMI is involved (with its limited cable run) then a device will simply use HDBaseT to transmit the HDMI signal and both devices (or convertors) will apply the HDMI protocols anyway. ie HDMI and HDBaseT will work hand in hand, not against each other.
HDBaseT and HDMI are competing technologies. One does not use the other. The content protection layer is managed by HDCP and will probably be common to both connection technologies.
download wrote:2) I don't really believe any network will activate a "copyright flag" to stop something being recorded or transferred to a PC. That just stops a small percent of the audience and it 100% will piss off that small percent. The Freeview restrictions will apply to HD and SD content. The Tivo (and all other) software will at some point insist that only SD quality can be outputted (ie no flags just a 100% rule).
I believe this has already been tested and tried in the USA and possibly elsewhere. Thinking this won't happen here at all is being optimistic.
download wrote:5) ACMA is a (wet) paper tiger. It has also got a pretty airy fairy EPG mandate to go with. And the networks are also providing an accurate 7 day EPG that matches every printed publication in the country. I don't see ACMA wielding a stick here.
If the rate of complaints to the ACMA increases significantly then I suspect that they will act more aggressively. When I last spoke to them they indicated that the level of complaints about poor/bad EPG data was so low that they had no need to act. Their own observations of accuracy problems were to be addressed by the stations in a voluntary correction and improvement to their procedures. The ACMA quarterly reports show that there is very little in the way of EPG complaints being reported.
download wrote:8) Many pundits see Freeview as some sort of Bogey man that will suddenly "activate" and render Freeview PVRs useless. The Oz law prohibits this. If you buy something with an advertised functionality then no secret contract Freeview clause can suddenly take that away from you.
I am reminded of the case in America where a TV station or TiVo accidentally enabled a copy protection option that prohibited recordings of a particular show. When the switch was flipped TiVos all over the place immediately deleted their copies of the nominated show from the TiVo hard drives. This was a remotely triggered retrospective action. It may have been accidental but the affect was real and angered many TiVo owners.
download wrote:Tivo's bought today will be able to do what the do today into the future.
I believe that the initial TiVos shipped in Australia had the network file player code enabled by default. This was later disabled by a network distributed firmware update when TiVo decided to sell that feature as an added cost item. If this is true then it negates your point.

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Ian.

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Post by peteru » Tue Jul 13, 2010 01:37

prl wrote:OP58 explicitly says that the normal EPG shouldn't be updated to accurate program run times:
Section 2.5 wrote:The accuracy of the timing information in the EITscheduleactual shall reflect the timing in the published station schedule.
[my emphasis]
I guess it depends on your definition of published. If you take published to mean physically printed in a newspaper, then you can probably arrive at your conclusion. I do not interpret it that way.

If you take published to mean announced to the public, then there's nothing to stop the broadcaster from repeatedly publishing a more accurate version of the scheduling information as it comes to hand. This is the interpretation that I chose and therefore believe that the EPG adjustments are consistent with the wording of the FreeTV OP notes.

Irrespective of our interpretation, the EIT EPG is being updated dynamically, it is more accurate than it used to be and all EIT capable equipment should be able to deal with dynamic updates gracefully. I'm pretty sure that the data source for both the EIT and the MHEG-5 EPG will be the same, so there should be no reason for the two EPGs to have different levels of accuracy.

You should also be aware that the industry uses the term EPG to describe all of the MHEG-5 user interface, not just the scheduling data. So, the Freeview EPG actually refers to all the MHEG-5 graphics, data, user interface and the model of operation. EIT EPG is just the event metadata.

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Post by peteru » Tue Jul 13, 2010 02:16

download wrote:3) Yes you have to purchase a key to offload content to a PC.
You actually get two keys. One to activate the PC software and another to apply as a DRM key to content.

Please note that DRM is not limited to encryption. Water marking and other mechanisms used to identify the source of content are also considered an effective means of DRM. While these mechanism do not prevent casual distribution of content, they can be used to identify and prosecute (persecute) individuals.

TiVo is a bit skimpy on technical details, but I believe that they only allow unencrypted content to be transcoded to formats that are SD or lower quality. Main target seems to be portable devices, such as phones.

At the end of the day, there's no reason to worry about this. Go no-Freeview and enjoy.

BTW: It should be easy enough for a manufacturer to build a PVR with a MHEG-5 engine that does not have a Freeview EPG logo. Such a device would be able to do everything that Freeview boxes do (except use the Freeview branding on the product and packaging), but without the need to impose Freeview limitations. In particular, the Freeview EPG is currently broadcast in such a way that Freeview can not prevent device manufacturers from displaying it. I also believe that the current broadcast licenses would not allow the networks to start applying encryption.

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Post by prl » Tue Jul 13, 2010 09:25

download wrote:...
7) The copyright act is completely null and void if the holder of the rights permits you to do something with the content. It is 100% legal to record a show onto the Tivo. Tivo/Freeview have made a legal deal that allows those recordings to be offloaded to a PC/DVD. If they haven't then Tivo/Freeview itself will be liable for copyright infringement (which I don't think they will be :))
...
That's a rather back-to-front view of copyright. The Copyright Act isn't "null and void" if someone has a licence to make a copy of a copyright work. Copyright gives the owner of the copyright the legal power to require the license in the first place. The terms of the licence state what copying is permitted. I rather suspect that If I have a licence to run a computer game on my Mac, and make a single backup copy of the DVD, and then go and make 100000 copies and sell them, I might very well find myself facing action under the Copyright Act.

I doubt very much that TiVo has a licence agreement with content owners that allows third parties to make copies. Is it even possible for a (licence) contract to bind someone who isn't a party to the contract? There's no more compelling reason to believe that TiVo would have such a thing than to believe that Beyonwiz would.

Section 5 of the TiVo Terms and Conditions appears to me to strongly indicate that TiVo does not have any such licence permitting general third party copying:
The content that you are able to record on, download to or transfer to or from your TiVo media device (including Third Party Content) is protected by copyright. Unless you own the copyright in, or are licensed by the copyright owner to do a particular act with respect to that content, you are only allowed under Australian copyright law to record broadcast content for private and domestic use for watching or listening to that content at a more convenient time than the time when the broadcast was made, or may otherwise use that or other content (including broadband content) as expressly permitted or otherwise in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions of the Copyright Act. Nothing in these Terms permits, and we do not permit, you to use or deal with content recorded on, downloaded to or transferred to or from your TiVo media device for any other purpose. If you are not the owner or licensee of content and you distribute or otherwise make it available to anyone else, you may be infringing copyright, and this will be treated as misuse of the TiVo service.
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Post by prl » Tue Jul 13, 2010 09:34

peteru wrote:...
If you take published to mean announced to the public, then there's nothing to stop the broadcaster from repeatedly publishing a more accurate version of the scheduling information as it comes to hand. This is the interpretation that I chose and therefore believe that the EPG adjustments are consistent with the wording of the FreeTV OP notes.
...
As far as I know, they don't yet do that at the level done in the EIT EPG for any other media, accounting for programs that aren't running to the nominal scheduling times. Of course, the EPG is also a form of publication, but then the whole thing gets rather circular.
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Post by download » Tue Jul 13, 2010 09:35

HDBaseT and HDMI are competing technologies. One does not use the other.
As HDMI is so ubiquitous in modern equipment, I'd envisage small converters that allow a Device > HDMI > Converter > HDBaseT > Convertor > HDMI > Device chain. Presumably all equipment might one day have both a HDMI and HDBaseT plug but that's a way off IMO.
I believe this has already been tested and tried in the USA and possibly elsewhere. Thinking this won't happen here at all is being optimistic.
Probably, but I'd say for PayTV broadcast only where the technology can be enforced. Also only for very special content. And perhaps most importantly where the viewer is aware that such restrictions can be put in place when they sign up to the service. I'd say suggesting it will happen to FTA here is being pessimistic :)
If the rate of complaints to the ACMA increases significantly then I suspect that they will act more aggressively.
My understanding is that ACMA don't investigate based on the "level of complaints". A single submission is enough to initiate an investigation to see if some part of the code has been breeched. Regardless, IMO the networks are currently operating well within the vague EPG definitions of the code.
I believe that the initial TiVos shipped in Australia had the network file player code enabled by default. This was later disabled by a network distributed firmware update when TiVo decided to sell that feature as an added cost item. If this is true then it negates your point.
I believe you're mistaken here, the HNP was not available to users initially (maybe just for the beta testers?). It was promised as an future extra at a "cheap" price. Many users threatened to return their units when they price was initially revealed to be $200 based on statutory rights - that the machine didn't perform as advertised (ie transfer files for a cheap price). Tivo eventually gave all existing users a big discount on the package. If Tivo withdraw any existing functionality because of some Freeview secret clause then all consumers could similarly return the unit. Every clause the buyer needs to be aware of is in the public Tivo manual.
TiVo is a bit skimpy on technical details, but I believe that they only allow unencrypted content to be transcoded to formats that are SD or lower quality.
This is consistent with what I'm thinking. This functionality will not/can not be removed IMO and its a reflection of the actual requirements of Freeview (and the broader industry)
In particular, the Freeview EPG is currently broadcast in such a way that Freeview can not prevent device manufacturers from displaying it.
It will be interesting to see what happens here. My guess is that copyright laws would come into play. Any manufacturer that uses the Freeview data for financial gain (ie sell PVRs) would likely be open for prosecution (As the ICE case showed, just because something is broadcast free and clear doesn't mean we can use it as we want). I will look forward to BW perhaps tapping into the Freeview enhanced data for a new model...

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Post by download » Tue Jul 13, 2010 09:49

prl wrote:That's a rather back-to-front view of copyright. The Copyright Act isn't "null and void" if someone has a licence to make a copy of a copyright work.
I was just (colourfully) pointing out if permission has been granted to copy something then talking about infringing copyright is a pretty moot discussion :)

However you're right, Tivo are operating under the same wink and a nod operation as all other PVR makers currently are. Only the Tivo is network affiliated and is working more closely to satisfy copyright (wink and nod) obligations - by only allowing SD PQ content to be offloaded. They're also using the old "We only provide the machine, its the users that misuse it and break the copyright" line. This is no longer a protection for Tivo and other PVR makers, although that said I think existing models are exempt from the new laws for a few years yet.

I think we can safely say that copyright holder will be going after the likes of BW before they try shut down Tivo :)

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Post by prl » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:02

download wrote:...They're also using the old "We only provide the machine, its the users that misuse it and break the copyright" line. This is no longer a protection for Tivo and other PVR makers, although that said I think existing models are exempt from the new laws for a few years yet.
...
What laws are you referring to? Section in the Copyright Act, perhaps? The section about the exemptions for existing devices would be even better. PVRs aren't devices that circumvent copy protection (and I don't think that that law is all that new).
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Post by peteru » Wed Jul 14, 2010 01:33

prl wrote:As far as I know, they don't yet do that at the level done in the EIT EPG for any other media, accounting for programs that aren't running to the nominal scheduling times. Of course, the EPG is also a form of publication, but then the whole thing gets rather circular.
The XML data feed that Ten uses (or at least used well over a year ago), to display their interactive Flash based web EPG had dynamically updated event times. This was available before the EIT EPG started getting dynamic updates.

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