EPG - Suggestions for alternative EPG formats.

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EPG - Suggestions for alternative EPG formats.

Post by jpp » Tue Jul 24, 2007 09:33

Update 16/8/2007 - added shots of Recording setup dialog boxes.

EPG presentation and usage is a subject very dear to me. A picture of JustEPG (EPG TAP for the Toppy 5000 series) below.
It's worth remembering that most TAPS including this one are the end result of wide participation and feedback by users and take or evolve over quite some time.
I've said it before a million times, bring on the BAPS as then we'll be able to have our cake and eat it too!!

Update here. Jackie of BW has said that they are completely revamping the EPG - date for that FW update TBA.
Add any further thoughts you may have on the way you'd like to represent an EPG to this thread now. I will collate what has already been noted soon.

Image

This is JustEPG Vs 11 - still my favourite version of the TAP - with the yellow cursor box to tell you where you currently are. You can set the transparency - I personally have it at about 20% so that I can see what's behind.

Dark blue colour indicated that a recording has been set for that program slot. It turns to bright yellow text whilst the recording is in progress.
Green boxes indicate the prgrams that are on now.
Global default padding (as well as a myriad of other global settings) can be set at will, but you can also adjust each recording's padding individually as you select the program(s) to be recorded. Recordings can be merged or splt for adjacent programs. et etc - full details in the link provided.

http://www.topfield-australia.com.au/ph ... php?t=5410

Some more screen shots of the various interactive setup options.

Image

Note that JE is unlike most EPG formats you see in that it is based not on a timeline structure, but rather on the printed TV Guide format. I find that all timeline based formats can't be used as you would a printed program guide. If offers too small a time window.

Certainly, you can use either to set timers, but you really still need a printed program in front of you to get an overall view of what's on on all the channels over the next say 4-6 hours. I don't use a printed TV guide these days - JustEPG is all I use. If I want to see what's on next, rather than pick up a printed TV guide off the table, I just press the EPG button. By having it reasonably transparent, as the last few actual JE screen shots show, you don't loose touch of what's going on.

JE shows you an approximate time window of around 4-6 hours. It follows the current time, so that you always have what's on now at the top of each channels' window. To see what's on in the next 4-6 hours, you press the numbers 1-4, 1 being from 6am onwards till around noon, 2 for the next 6 hour period and so on. To see the next day, you just press the FAST forward button.

The arrow buttons are used to move the cursor around on the screen to select the program you either want to go to (by doubling clicking the OK button) or just select to read the 3 line Extended Info at the bottom of the screen. By pressing the Info button, you bring up the ALL of the extended info. Press it again and you revert to the 3 line format. You can also set it up to have no extended info showing at all. Then, pressing the Info button will immediately bring up the full half page info screen.


This post to be updated on a continuing basis.
Last edited by jpp on Wed Aug 22, 2007 14:05, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by madmax » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:01

I s'pose I should reply in here too........I like to see something red for the shows that are set to record - so maybe a red highlight instead of the blue? Or even pink?

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Post by jpp » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:28

madmax wrote:I s'pose I should reply in here too........I like to see something red for the shows that are set to record - so maybe a red highlight instead of the blue? Or even pink?
yes, something every one always asks about. There are certain colour combinations that the eye is not too happy with. Red on blue is one of them. Peter Dowload (Gillespie) who wrote (and still writes updates) JE or JustEPG chose the clours, but, as I said, you can now (Vs 15 upwards) put on new skins which some other TAP writers have come up with. I believe some of these skins have red as the Recording colour.

The latest version can be found here:

http://www.topfield-australia.com.au/ph ... 684#105684

Image

I still prefer the earlier Vs 11 style though. It's just much easier to see the rectangular cursor box (stands out more) than yellow bold text. I've tried to cajole Peter into changing the cursor back to this style but he won't budge :( . I guess that's why you can now get different skins for JE.
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Post by madmax » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:38

Even better would be a red dot after the name, a la Windows Media Centre. I reckon that's the ultimate, I find the highlights are an interruption to the eye as you quickly scan over the EPG.

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Post by IanSav » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:26

Hi,

I quite like the proposals for an updated EPG. Perhaps Beyonwiz can add this as a third EPG style.

I am not a graphical/visual/artistic person but I would like to offer a few modifications / suggestions to the proposed layout. I think that Beyonwiz chould adapt the existing menu and popup colour scheme to this new layout. That could mean that the background becomes a transparent light or dark gray (Beyonwiz should be a little more consistant with their on-screen overlays) within a solid black border. The overlay should have a title area stating that this is an EPG and right aligned in the heading the current day, date and time. The channel names should be contained within appropriately highlighted cells. The program text should be in white. Programs that are set to be recorded should have a bright red circle (record icon) between the time and the program title. If the program is currently being recorded then the record icon should have a small number 1 or 2 in the red circle to indicate that the recording is currently happening and which tuner is in use (similar to the front panel recording indication). The currently selected program should have a highlight box as per other Beyonwiz menus. The program day, date, start time, end time, rating, extended information, definition, sound track, subtitles etc etc should be neatly arranged in one location under the channel grid.

The arrow keys should move the current location cursor around the grid and scroll the grid contents to include other channels and earlier or later times. The information panel at the bottom of the grid would be updated with every move.

By the way, hopefully Beyonwiz will consider an option to have various colour schemes/themes in the setup menu such that all dialogue boxes and menus can change themes in a single setup configuration selection. This will cater for those who are not crazy about the red (red brown)/gray/black theme that is currently the default (if somewhat inconsistantly applied).

What do people think?

Regards,
Ian.

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Post by jpp » Tue Jul 24, 2007 17:06

IanSav wrote:Hi,

I quite like the proposals for an updated EPG. Perhaps Beyonwiz can add this as a third EPG style.
.....
The arrow keys should move the current location cursor around the grid and scroll the grid contents to include other channels and earlier or later times. The information panel at the bottom of the grid would be updated with every move.

Regards,
Ian.
Yes, this is how JE works for the most part in fact. Instead on scrolling onto earlier or later times, JE used the numeric numbers 1-4 to display approx 6 hour time slots. It always comes up in the current time period of course, but if you are say watching the telly in the morning, and you want to see what's on in the afternoon or evening, you would press 2, 3 or 4, 4 being the late evening to early morning time period.

Doing it this way overcomes the problem of not being able to easily place the cursor from a channel at the top of the screen to one at the bottom half (last 3 channels 7,9 and 10) in the illustration above. The ergonomics of the design take quite a while to get right - JE has been evolving over the past 3 years and Peter is still refining it!!

You can see though, that we are asking for quite a sophisticated EPG. I just wonder how far BW are prepared to go with all of this. Again, that's why I strongly advocate that they allow user supplied programs (BAPs) to be loaded onto the machine. It relieves them of an awfull lot of work and would allow the BWiz machines to become the top of the crop, just like the current Toppy 5000 series.
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Post by znelbok » Tue Jul 24, 2007 19:58

The layout is not the biggest issue to me, but rather the fact that you have to get your EPG from a subscription source with no other options available.

BW can fix this by removing the "hardcoding" from their products that required IceTV only to be used and publishing the EPG format required and allowing the user to add their own data.

Mick

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Post by jpp » Wed Jul 25, 2007 20:05

IanSav wrote:Hi,

I quite like the proposals for an updated EPG. Perhaps Beyonwiz can add this as a third EPG style.

I am not a graphical/visual/artistic person but I would like to offer a few modifications / suggestions to the proposed layout. I think that Beyonwiz chould adapt the existing menu and popup colour scheme to this new layout. That could mean that the background becomes a transparent light or dark gray (Beyonwiz should be a little more consistant with their on-screen overlays) within a solid black border. The overlay should have a title area stating that this is an EPG and right aligned in the heading the current day, date and time. The channel names should be contained within appropriately highlighted cells. The program text should be in white. Programs that are set to be recorded should have a bright red circle (record icon) between the time and the program title. If the program is currently being recorded then the record icon should have a small number 1 or 2 in the red circle to indicate that the recording is currently happening and which tuner is in use (similar to the front panel recording indication). The currently selected program should have a highlight box as per other Beyonwiz menus. The program day, date, start time, end time, rating, extended information, definition, sound track, subtitles etc etc should be neatly arranged in one location under the channel grid.

The arrow keys should move the current location cursor around the grid and scroll the grid contents to include other channels and earlier or later times. The information panel at the bottom of the grid would be updated with every move.

By the way, hopefully Beyonwiz will consider an option to have various colour schemes/themes in the setup menu such that all dialogue boxes and menus can change themes in a single setup configuration selection. This will cater for those who are not crazy about the red (red brown)/gray/black theme that is currently the default (if somewhat inconsistantly applied).

What do people think?

Regards,
Ian.
Just had a look at the Toppy site again re JE skins - you can see from these examples that arriving at a suitable consesus wrt a universal colour theme can be a dauting task.

http://www.topfield-australia.com.au/ph ... sc&start=0

And yes Ian, many of the items you mention wrt positioning and updating of info as you move the cursor around are done in exactly the way you'd like to see them done. With regard to a common colour sheme, whilst I think that would obviously be desirable, I don't find that so much of an issue on my Toppy though, where 2 of my most used TAPS, Archive and JE, are very different. Helps in fact in immediately telling the brain what menu you are on.
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Post by ChristianWickham » Wed Jul 25, 2007 20:32

madmax wrote:Even better would be a red dot after the name, a la Windows Media Centre. I reckon that's the ultimate, I find the highlights are an interruption to the eye as you quickly scan over the EPG.
I disagree. Adding a red dot will consume at least 2 characters of the program/show name, which can be a problem for shows that are not descriptive in the first few characters - I know that you can get information by pressing "i".

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Post by Jeff Parker » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:47

Can I also suggest that there be an option to add more data on the screen (maybe by using a smaller font) for the bigger panels / projectors?

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Post by IanSav » Sat Jul 28, 2007 13:17

Hi Jeff,
Jeff Parker wrote:Can I also suggest that there be an option to add more data on the screen (maybe by using a smaller font) for the bigger panels / projectors?
Perhaps the EPG grid size can be a setup menu configuration item. That will allow people, like yourself, with a larger screen to request a higer density of program information. People could simply select the grid size that best suits their needs (or eye sight capacity ;) ).

Regards,
Ian.

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Post by jpp » Wed Aug 08, 2007 15:31

IanSav wrote:Hi Jeff,
Jeff Parker wrote:Can I also suggest that there be an option to add more data on the screen (maybe by using a smaller font) for the bigger panels / projectors?
Perhaps the EPG grid size can be a setup menu configuration item. That will allow people, like yourself, with a larger screen to request a higer density of program information. People could simply select the grid size that best suits their needs (or eye sight capacity ;) ).

Regards,
Ian.
Just thought I'd open up discussions again on the EPG. Having played around with it for a while now on my new P1, I am certainly very frustrated with it.

My "view" of an EPG is that it should serve as a TV Guide/Program as well as having the ability to set recordings up (naturally :) ). What I like so much about the JustEpg (JE) guide I've posted in the 1st post of this thread, is that it serves so well as a TV guide. I don't pick up the printed guide (in fact I don't have a TV Guide)when I want to see what's on next, I just hit the Guide button.

To be useful as a TV guide, an EPG should follow the format of a printed guide. So, program events should be aligned vertically (as in the 2nd view of the current BW EPG), not horizontally, and not be tied to (grouped) to a time line.

It should be easy to see the next day's event by pressing a single button. JE used the Forward and Reverse arrow keys to do that.

To view an earlier or later time slot on the day, again just a single button - JE uses the numbers 1 to 4 on the numeric keypad to do that.

I personally don't see the need for displaying a small window of what's currently being watched. Neither do I see a need for PIP really (can see the flame torches becoming lit up now :) ). A PIP window would be difficult to include in a JE type of EPG setup without limiting the display area too much.

JE also offers a nice feature called "Favourites". This marks or colours the programs you have selected as yoru favourites and they thus stand out when bringing up the EPG, reminding you of them. In later versions of FE, you can also bring them up as a group all by themselves.

Extended info can also be shown by pressing the Info button. This works by removing either the top or bottom half of the display, depending on which half of the screen the cursor currently is and giving this space to the full extended info. Press the info button again, and it drops back to either the limited info section at the bottom of teh screen or completely OFF, depending on how you've set the preferences.

All this takes a lot of effort to program. JE evolved over a few years into what it is now. It is one of the TAPs that you can load onto your Toppy. The unique thing about TAPs is that all the way along its development, users put in their thoughts on how to improve them. I must give full credit to BW for doing some of this right now with us discussing and adding our wishlist items to the current fixed firmware.

If enough users have a strong interest in a better EPG, I would be happy to start a separate thread on this feature and act as "moderator" and collate/distill all posts into the 1st post of the thread so that the BW people can readily access our thoughts.
Last edited by jpp on Wed Aug 08, 2007 16:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by madmax » Wed Aug 08, 2007 15:50

jpp wrote:If enough users have a strong interest in a better EPG.....
I sure do!! I'd be happy with JustEPG, looks great to me! (apart from the red=record thing I posted earlier) I notice it is in 4:3 format, perhaps an optional 16:9 version would be nice too - could fit longer program titles in that way...... :D

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Post by jpp » Wed Aug 08, 2007 16:25

madmax wrote:
jpp wrote:If enough users have a strong interest in a better EPG.....
I sure do!! I'd be happy with JustEPG, looks great to me! (apart from the red=record thing I posted earlier) I notice it is in 4:3 format, perhaps an optional 16:9 version would be nice too - could fit longer program titles in that way...... :D
Hi madmax,

It's actually dynamic in width - on my 40in LCD shows up in 16:9 format. Same amount of info though.

Not shown in the sample in the first post is that you can set JE to show program type ahead of the title - e.g. Movie or Sport etc - these catagories are already embedded in the ICE EPG data. Actually is is. Shows as M: prefix - you can also set it to full text, i.e Movie, but you then cut off some of the title.

Think I might just start an new EPG thread in the DP-P1 forum. My back is till crook, again for the 2nd time in 2 weeks, so I can do little else than sit at the keyboard for a little while, stagger up for a short walk around the house, lie down for a while and get even stiffer and then back to the keyboard - what a life eh :wink: ?
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Post by IanSav » Wed Aug 08, 2007 16:45

Hi Phil,
jpp wrote:Think I might just start an new EPG thread in the DP-P1 forum. My back is till crook, again for the 2nd time in 2 weeks, so I can do little else than sit at the keyboard for a little while, stagger up for a short walk around the house, lie down for a while and get even stiffer and then back to the keyboard - what a life eh :wink: ?
Sorry to hear about your back. You have my sympathy and understanding.

Given that the EPG is a general topic that would interest many readers with different versions of Beyonwiz why would you want to move the discussion to a model specific area.

Regards,
Ian.

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Post by jpp » Wed Aug 08, 2007 17:06

IanSav wrote:Hi Phil,
jpp wrote:Think I might just start an new EPG thread in the DP-P1 forum. My back is till crook, again for the 2nd time in 2 weeks, so I can do little else than sit at the keyboard for a little while, stagger up for a short walk around the house, lie down for a while and get even stiffer and then back to the keyboard - what a life eh :wink: ?
Sorry to hear about your back. You have my sympathy and understanding.

Given that the EPG is a general topic that would interest many readers with different versions of Beyonwiz why would you want to move the discussion to a model specific area.

Regards,
Ian.
Have answered your post in the new EPG thread. Agree that it's common to all 3 machines. But the EPG is such a central issue for all, that I'm looking for a way to separate it a bit from the rest of the feedback. Any suggestions welcome.
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Post by IanSav » Wed Aug 08, 2007 17:41

Hi Phil,
jpp wrote:Have answered your post in the new EPG thread. Agree that it's common to all 3 machines. But the EPG is such a central issue for all, that I'm looking for a way to separate it a bit from the rest of the feedback. Any suggestions welcome.
As I said there, get Dave to make this thread sticky and it will stay at the top of the list and remain prominant until it is no longer needed.

Regards,
Ian.

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Post by jpp » Wed Aug 08, 2007 20:29

Dave's done the deed, so this topic has become a Sticky at the top of this Forum. I'll try to update the first post on a regular basis as we go along.
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Post by grunta » Fri Aug 10, 2007 18:54

jpp wrote: My back is till crook, again for the 2nd time in 2 weeks, so I can do little else than sit at the keyboard for a little while, stagger up for a short walk around the house, lie down for a while and get even stiffer and then back to the keyboard - what a life eh :wink: ?
welcome to my world ..... :cry:
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Post by peteru » Sat Aug 11, 2007 02:47

I found that physio and stretching exercises helped me a lot more than Valium and Voltaren. Keeping warm was also important.

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Post by jpp » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:55

peteru wrote:I found that physio and stretching exercises helped me a lot more than Valium and Voltaren. Keeping warm was also important.
Yep, that goes for me too - pretty nasty stuff Voltaren. My biggest problem is that I get up and do too much too early after recovery - like now, having hobbled up to the keyboard to type this in :lol: . Maybe we should start a new thread - the BW geek crock blog :P .
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Post by jpp » Sat Aug 18, 2007 18:39

From Jackie BW:

"Information :

I understand that most EPG related wish lists are put at top priorities... We are planning to design whole renewed EPG to provide the most useful ways. It may takes time to do it. Kindly let me update the NEW EPG schedule later on."

Bodes well for us EPG lovers. :)
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Post by jpp » Sat Aug 18, 2007 23:51

Some new stuff added to the 1st post.
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EyeTV Epg

Post by peterjcat » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:48

Just to throw in my 2c, I like the JustEPG layout a lot but I think I even prefer the one that comes with EyeTV on the Mac. It's got two lines of information for each program, colour codes according to some scheme I haven't entirely figured out, and you just scroll horizontally through time and vertically through the channel space (and you can see 6 channels on screen at once, which is handy). Clicking on anything brings up the extended information about it. A good layout and nicely implemented I reckon.

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Post by madmax » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:57

Nice.....and pretty much identical to Windows MCE (except for the coloured boxes). I'd certainly be happy with something like that, room for 6 channels is a must.

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Post by IanSav » Wed Aug 22, 2007 13:10

Hi Peterjcat,

That format is similar to the standar EPG that comes with the Beyonwiz. There is just no preview screen and more data in the space that the preview screen occupied with a little rearrangement of some items.

If the EPG was transparent then the preview screen could in fact be the background of the EPG. ;)

Regards,
Ian.

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Re: EyeTV Epg

Post by jpp » Wed Aug 22, 2007 13:45

peterjcat wrote:Just to throw in my 2c, I like the JustEPG layout a lot but I think I even prefer the one that comes with EyeTV on the Mac. It's got two lines of information for each program, colour codes according to some scheme I haven't entirely figured out, and you just scroll horizontally through time and vertically through the channel space (and you can see 6 channels on screen at once, which is handy). Clicking on anything brings up the extended information about it. A good layout and nicely implemented I reckon.
Hi Peter,

As much as I like the improved "razz" of the colour scheme used, and I think JustEPG could certainly do with some "razzing" up, this format is essentially the same as many others, i.e. it is based on a timeline structure. You can't use it like you would a printed program guide. If offers too small a time window.

Certainly, you can use it to set timers, but you really still need a printed program in front of you to get an overall view of what's on on all the channels over the next say 4-6 hours. I don't use a printed TV guide these days - JustEPG is all I use. If I want to see what's on next, rather than pick up a printed TV guide off the table, I just press the EPG button. By having it reasonably transparent, as the last few actual JE screen shots show, you don't loose touch of what's going on.

JE shows you an approximate time window of around 4-6 hours. It follows the current time, so that you always have what's on now at the top of each channels' window. To see what's on in the next 4-6 hours, you press the numbers 1-4, 1 being from 6am onwards till around noon, 2 for the next 6 hour period and so on. To see the next day, you just press the FAST forward button.

The arrow buttons are used to move the cursor around on the screen to select the program you either want to go to (by doubling clicking the OK button) or just select to read the 3 line Extended Info at the bottom of the screen. By pressing the Info button, you bring up the ALL of the extended info. Press it again and you revert to the 3 line format. You can also set it up to have no extended info showing at all. Then, pressing the Info button will immediately bring up the full half page info screen.
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Post by peterjcat » Wed Aug 22, 2007 14:14

Some good points made. Like I said, I really enjoyed using JE on the Toppy but I'm personally finding the timeline format works as well or better, as long as the scrolling is fast & smooth enough -- I don't like to plan too far ahead anyway. When I want to plan the week's recordings I sit there and scroll through the timeline, doesn't seem to take any longer than scanning the JE page with the old mince pies.

I do like the visuals that the HTPC systems are coming up with; it's a shame that the BW interface is kind of ugly-duckling at the moment, though I'm sure it will bloom... I reckon the P1 looks great from the outside and certainly a schmick interface would make it even more pleasurable to use.

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Post by DaveR » Wed Aug 22, 2007 21:06

peterjcat, That has got to be the nicest looking EPG I've ever seen.

I played around with it a bit to try to see how it would look if changed to match the beyonwiz's colour theme and style. What I ended up with does not look as good as the original eyetv blue. It was going to be too hard to change all the different blue and green shades to suit the red/brown so I just used the original blue and green bits.

I have also rearranged the layout a bit to fit in the bw's help menu at the bottom. The grey help menu would actually go well with the original blue theme.

Image
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Post by peterjcat » Wed Aug 22, 2007 22:39

Well, I wouldn't be too upset if the BW red theme evolved into something, I don't know, bluer? It's meant to be the most soothing colour! And would match the trim (at least of the P1).

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Post by DaveR » Wed Aug 22, 2007 23:03

I was thinking we should be presenting an epg that may actually get included in a future firmware. If we suggest something that blends in with the bw's existing menus its more likely that beyonwiz will consider doing it (especially as it wouldn't mean a whole redesign of all the menus).
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Post by jpp » Wed Aug 22, 2007 23:26

Dave? wrote:I was thinking we should be presenting an epg that may actually get included in a future firmware. If we suggest something that blends in with the bw's existing menus its more likely that beyonwiz will consider doing it (especially as it wouldn't mean a whole redesign of all the menus).
Agree with that Dave - certainly wrt colour/style themes. I guess my main divergence with what probably a lot of users are used to and therefore like, is that I prefer a guide style layout rather than a timeline layout. This is a departure from the current BW EPG style I know. I guess it comes about from my preference to see easily what's on, rather than exactly when it's on, which is what a timeline model is more biased towards. I also like to see at least 3 lines of extended info across the screen as I flick across the EPG, without having to press the info button each time. This could easily be accomodated in your model suggestion at the bottom where you now show "CSI: Miami" in big letters. To see all of the extended info, just press the info button and a larger box could overlay some of the EPG box.

One thing BTW a TV Guide style EPG is better at is listing short programs, like a 5 min news break ala ABC around mid evening or 15 min Media Watch. A timeline EPG has no room to place the program name in the small space available. The BW just shows it as a couple of dots. For the same reason, program titles are irregular in length and this and the fact that they are not aligned vertically, makes them harder to read IMO.

Perhaps I could add a poll to gauge people's prefered style - Timeline or Guide format.
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Post by peterjcat » Fri Aug 24, 2007 15:01

Hey, maybe the answer lies in that little red "Style" button -- how good would it be if that flicked between a timeline and a guide layout!

And sure, I'm all for putting up suggestions that stand a chance of getting implemented, and functionality is of course more important than looks. But I'm sure that some time in the future BW will revisit the core colour/style/layout and polish everything up a bit, no harm in nudging 'em. Little things can make a bit difference in user experience as we all know.

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Post by jpp » Fri Aug 24, 2007 15:30

Hi Peter,

What a good idea - choose your style as either Time Line or Guide. We can all have our cake and eat them too that way. :P . Come to think of it, this is actually what the Wiz does now for the alternate view in a way, although only for one channel at the time. Just expand it to include at least 6 channels and arrange them as per JustEPG layout and voila, we have it. :lol: . In fact I can see Jackie smiling to himself and saying "That's what we have been planning all along". :D .
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Post by madmax » Fri Aug 24, 2007 15:46

peterjcat wrote:Hey, maybe the answer lies in that little red "Style" button -- how good would it be if that flicked between a timeline and a guide layout!
Yes!!!! Love it! This is going straight to the wishlist, with a bullet!

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Post by brianh » Fri Aug 31, 2007 18:00

Just want to add my vote for a "JustEPG" style layout & functionality (even if it is in BW-native skin). It is eminently usable and facilitates maximum information in minimum screen space in a very easy to use interface. Not that I will need to push hard to convince many on this forum of its benefits... ;)

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Post by alwayslooking » Sat Sep 01, 2007 09:57

I would prefer the JustEPG layout too :)

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Post by grunta » Sat Sep 01, 2007 16:56

peteru wrote:I found that physio and stretching exercises helped me a lot more than Valium and Voltaren. Keeping warm was also important.
mines going to be a lifetime on and off affair, using the above already :? I find an osteopath better, get stretching, massage, and manipulation as needed
if you like things HOT to help with mobility try Finalgon cream

if you like things HOT HOT HOT to help with mobility try Finalgon gel,(smaller tube) comes with an applicator so you don't get it on your hands... :shock:

the difference is like
  • Dencarub hot is a capsicum

  • Finalgon cream is a chilli

  • Finalgon gel is a chilli you rubbed in your eye
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Post by netmask » Fri Sep 07, 2007 22:20

After just one day I *really* miss JustEPG, the layout is a far more efficient paradigm to the classic horizontal time-line . Six stations on one page; it's a suprise Peter hasn't copyrighted this layout as I haven't seen it in any other set top box - it just works!!! :D

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Post by IanSav » Fri Sep 07, 2007 22:42

Hi Netmask,

Jackie at Beyonwiz has already told us that a new EPG format is going to be adopted. They listed to the lengthy discussions on this issue and decided there was merit in a re-design. Work will be started when the current priority tasks are complete.

Regards,
Ian.

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Post by Jammer » Fri Sep 07, 2007 22:47

I'll add my vote to the "JustEPG" epg style. I only got my S1 this afternoon and I'm already a bit frustrated with the BW epg style and really miss JE on my toppy. I realise that BW are looking at this issue but figured it couldn't hurt to add another "Yes" vote to the JE format!

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Post by peteru » Fri Sep 07, 2007 23:29

I've never used JustAPiggy and don't miss it. I've seen plenty of screenshots and given how much info is present on the screen at once, don't think it would suit my usage patterns.

The two styles of EPG available right now do me fine. About the only suggestion I would have is to change the "single channel" view layout so that the date/time column takes up less room and the extra space is given to the program title column.

I think there are far more important things that Beyonwiz engineers could be doing than tweaking EPG layout. Support for Matroska (MKV) files or the release of a development environment / GPL code would be more welcome. After all, if we can write our own code, we can have a whole host of EPG viewers.

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Post by jpp » Fri Sep 07, 2007 23:48

peteru wrote:I've never used JustAPiggy and don't miss it. I've seen plenty of screenshots and given how much info is present on the screen at once, don't think it would suit my usage patterns..
Ah, but wait until you buy that big screen you've promised yourself before Xmas :D :D .
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Post by peteru » Fri Sep 07, 2007 23:59

It's not the screen size, it's the ability to get it all in my head. I'd have to have a much larger short term memory and the skills to visually grep a lot more info.

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Post by DaveR » Sat Sep 08, 2007 04:13

peteru wrote:Iand the skills to visually grep a lot more info.
And language skills to speak less Linuxish and more English. 8)

I've never used JustANewsPaper either and I find that the std EPG is adequate - especially with the new beta tweaks.
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Post by brianh » Sat Sep 08, 2007 08:47

But that's just it - the std EPG is *adequate* - abd when you've used something better than that, it's very hard to get used to just adequate again... as for peteru's comment on grouping of info & being able to absorb it, this is where JustEPG shines, in my opinion - my brain is chemically crippled at present (a lovely side effect of long term anti rejection drugs) and I rely heavily on JE to make sense of all the info, it's actually a struggle for me to keep track of where I am in the std EPG...(and most other things that require memory & thought processes!)

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Post by jpp » Sat Sep 08, 2007 09:22

peteru wrote:It's not the screen size, it's the ability to get it all in my head. I'd have to have a much larger short term memory and the skills to visually grep a lot more info.
Yeah, I think this is one of the "misconceptions" of JE. It's just like a printed TV Guide. When you look at a printed guide, you don't take in all of the 2 pages of A4 do you. Your brain can only "focus in" on a very small part of the whole page.

So it is with JE on the screen. You only look at one channel at the time. BUT, the advantage is that you don't need to scroll around to see more - just shift your eyes and brain around :lol: . To use the analogy in reverse, the current EPG is the equivalent of having your TV Guide spread over several pages, and if you use the timeline model, strictly organised wrt time rather than content.
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Post by DrPhil » Sat Sep 08, 2007 09:26

My votes going to be for just EPG style. I already know I am going to miss it.

I have to admit I have my BW but its not working yet due to bad remote so I have no actual experience of its EPG, however going by the BW manual its not that much different from the norm. And I think thats the important thing is this box is intended to be a cut above the rest.

I have had 4 or 5 STB's, and all of them use a similar 2,3,4 programs from now type of interface with cut off program names etc. I find that so limiting.

And I am sure that those who find the existing adequate, it will remain and the more detailed EPG will be an option. Can't imagine not giving the user a choice is an good option. And let us not forget there are some with eye sight issues that need the bigger EPG.

Cheers

Edit:
Maybe the OP (I just realised thats you jpp) can modify and put in a poll for the different options or create a new thread for a poll (if one does not exist). Theres also more than Just EPG out there - maybe include a few screen shots of each option.

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Post by DrPhil » Sat Sep 08, 2007 09:34

peteru wrote: I think there are far more important things that Beyonwiz engineers could be doing than tweaking EPG layout. Support for Matroska (MKV) files or the release of a development environment / GPL code would be more welcome. After all, if we can write our own code, we can have a whole host of EPG viewers.
And thats the real point I guess.

Phil

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