EPG - Suggestions for alternative EPG formats.

[jpp]

My votes going to be for just EPG style. I already know I am going to miss it.....

Edit:
Maybe the OP (I just realised thats you jpp) can modify and put in a poll for the different options or create a new thread for a poll (if one does not exist). Theres also more than Just EPG out there - maybe include a few screen shots of each option.

Hi Dr Phil (to distinguish between the 2 of us, you can call me Mr Phil if you like )

I don't see much point in starting another thread on this topic. Other posters have already put in their comments and screen shots of alternative EPGs.

I think there are just 2 basic formats to consider - you could call them the Time-Line (std EPG Format) dressed up to varying degrees of sophistication, and the TV Guide Program EPG representation like JustEPG. I am not aware of any other incarnations of this style around, so if anyone has one, would you please post it/them?

I think Ian has indicated that BW are re-designing the EPG and they will probably give us the option of either type. I also get the feeling from the various comments that Jackie has made, that they will not be releasing API's until they are happy that the BW has been fully debugged - in fact I sense a reluctance to release APIs at all. If that's the cae, we may as well have as much input to the design of the EPG (and all other facets) right now, rather than wait for APIs to appear.

[DrPhil]

Hi there Mr Phil ,

I think you are right about the thread.

You are right about the incarnations too. I knew there were other EPGs out there but on closer look I see they are not the same as JustEPG. So guilty of assumption there.

I will be keen to see what they come up with, but I bet one thing if the API is sorted then there will be a lot of things happening.

Cheers

DrPhil

PS - do you get labeled as Dr Phil? I choose that name cause the guys at work call me that. I have yet to figure out if its because they expect me to solve the worlds problems or if it is the lack of hair I have on top.

[jpp]

Hi there Mr Phil ,
PS - do you get labeled as Dr Phil? I choose that name cause the guys at work call me that. I have yet to figure out if its because they expect me to solve the worlds problems or if it is the lack of hair I have on top.

Yeah, they used to call me professor - wild bunch of unruly hair (then). But, I'm gratified to see that I'm climbing up the ladder (or should that be down the ladder??) - now in the 9% range of Wizzy posters .

[IanSav]

Hi Guys,

Beyonwiz staff have been looking at this thread and they do intend to tweak the EPG. It is not something that is the highest priority though. The main focus on development is to complete the feature set. Later they should be able to go back to refine and improve the features. The use of the RED button to select between different EPG styles is something that I hope they retain. That way, more people should be able to select an EPG style that best suits them. (I hope that in future firmware versions the EPG style selected is remembered from one EPG use to the next!)

By the way, an API is one of the things they do want to offer. I suspect that it must come after the core code is completed and stabilised.

Regards,
Ian.

[DaveR]

in fact I sense a reluctance to release APIs at all.

Quite the opposite. They originally also wanted to include a java API... but the resource requirements would have been too much.

[Foxtail]

My vote for JustEPG or somethng close to it. I really miss it from my previous Toppy.

[Kezza]

My vote is for an API so we can write our own EPG's, then the DEV's can get on with making the firmware better.

Kezza

[bohemian]

I suppose many are aware that channels ten , seven and abc will be broadcasting new extra channels soon.

Our EPG will soon be cluttered with more info than we can manage probably.

[madmax]

I thought they were just going to sometimes broadcast different programmes on their HD channels. Still, it means that even 6 columns of EPG may not be enough any more.

[prl]

I thought they were just going to sometimes broadcast different programmes on their HD channels. Still, it means that even 6 columns of EPG may not be enough any more.

That's what I thought, too. And I hadn't heard anything about the ABC doing it. They show so little native HD content anyway.

[brianh]

I thought they were just going to sometimes broadcast different programmes on their HD channels. Still, it means that even 6 columns of EPG may not be enough any more.

For comparison, JustEPG can be configured with a 2nd page; this would be a good way of coping with extra channel info - providing we can get that style of EPG display implemented....

[bohemian]

I know that ten will start using "1" specifically or HD shows, and "10" will be the SD channel. I think there will different shows on the new HD "1" compared to the current "12" HD. It is possible that 1 and 12 may still share some content though.

Dont know what seven will be doing but it should be a channel with different content running at the same time as the current broadcast.

I read that someone guesses that some of the content on these extra channels may be re-runs of program similar to what ABC2 does.

ABC will be creating "ABC3" which I believe will be dedicated to childrens programming.

And I just remembered a recent episode of the "National Press Club Address" where I think it was some managemant type from SBS stated that they at SBS were trying to gather funds for programing on SBS2. I think as an alternatvie to the world news running all the time.

[prl]

I know that ten will start using "1" specifically or HD shows, and "10" will be the SD channel. I think there will different shows on the new HD "1" compared to the current "12" HD. It is possible that 1 and 12 may still share some content though.

Dont know what seven will be doing but it should be a channel with different content running at the same time as the current broadcast.

I read that someone guesses that some of the content on these extra channels may be re-runs of program similar to what ABC2 does.

ABC will be creating "ABC3" which I believe will be dedicated to childrens programming.

And I just remembered a recent episode of the "National Press Club Address" where I think it was some managemant type from SBS stated that they at SBS were trying to gather funds for programing on SBS2. I think as an alternatvie to the world news running all the time.

Ten's press release on this is a bit unclear, but my reading of it is that 1 and 12 will have the same content.

Underscoring its premium status, on any digital-capable device TEN's HD service is located at channel number 1 (from 1 October) and 12. TEN's SD service is at 10 and the network's video program guide at 11.

They can do that without any increase in bandwidth, just by mapping the same sets of PIDs to the two different services. Running two real HD services + SD would probably blow their bandwidth budget.

The press release also gives some hints about what the added content will be. They say the new service number will appear on Mon 1 Oct, but fudge on whether the new content will start then. Ten's program guide isn't set up to reflect multichanneling yet. They don't even mark HD programs up front in the guide, you have to click on individual program episodes to find out.

Seven's press release on multichannelling is pretty much content-free, but I'd be surprised if it was different from what Ten is going to do. It starts Dec 2007.

The ABC has made a submission to ACMA about a new non-commercial children's channel, but I don't think that that's coming real soon.

[bohemian]

Whatever the networks decide to do there is going to be significantly more info to include in a EPG in the future, so the point of my post is that we should take that into account when deciding what is the best format to reproduce all that info.

[prl]

Whatever the networks decide to do there is going to be significantly more info to include in a EPG in the future, so the point of my post is that we should take that into account when deciding what is the best format to reproduce all that info.

Ten's new info won't take up any more real estate in the BW EPG than it uses now. JustEPG only deals with the SD services, so it doesn't need to deal with this problem.

Different content on HD and SD would mean that a JustEPG-style EPG on the BW couldn't just have a mark on the program to indicate that it was available in HD.

[brianh]

Whatever the networks decide to do there is going to be significantly more info to include in a EPG in the future, so the point of my post is that we should take that into account when deciding what is the best format to reproduce all that info.

Ten's new info won't take up any more real estate in the BW EPG than it uses now. JustEPG only deals with the SD services, so it doesn't need to deal with this problem.

Different content on HD and SD would mean that a JustEPG-style EPG on the BW couldn't just have a mark on the program to indicate that it was available in HD.

Yes, but the whole point of mentioning JustEPG was the *style* of EPG - when discussing SD vs HD, the developed BW EPG can be configured to cope with this, whether JustEPG does or not is then academic....

[prl]

Whatever the networks decide to do there is going to be significantly more info to include in a EPG in the future, so the point of my post is that we should take that into account when deciding what is the best format to reproduce all that info.

Ten's new info won't take up any more real estate in the BW EPG than it uses now. JustEPG only deals with the SD services, so it doesn't need to deal with this problem.

Different content on HD and SD would mean that a JustEPG-style EPG on the BW couldn't just have a mark on the program to indicate that it was available in HD.

Yes, but the whole point of mentioning JustEPG was the *style* of EPG - when discussing SD vs HD, the developed BW EPG can be configured to cope with this, whether JustEPG does or not is then academic....

That's why I said "JustEPG-style". With the current broadcast rules, where HD broadcasts are a subset of the SD broadcasts, all that A JustEPG-style display would need would be a mark to show that a program was available both in SD and HD, and the compact 6-to-a-page single-display would have worked very nicely. With multi-channeling between SD and HD, that single-page option can't be done. I understand that Just-EPG can do multi-page, but it doesn't have the convenience.

I do like the JustEPG idea of dedicating more screen real-estate to the program than either the BW or TF7000 EPGs do.

[brianh]

Fair enough then...... I just think that even the less convenient two page approach is going to be better than any other design that's likely to eventuate

[jpp]

Fair enough then...... I just think that even the less convenient two page approach is going to be better than any other design that's likely to eventuate

I agree totally

[ChrisPayne]

Having read through this thread I found most people were concerned with an EPG view that showed things on a timeline. Given one of the big reasons for having a PVR is to watch TV when you want to, rather than when you are forced to, I would have thought an ideal EPG was more about what is on rather than when it is on.

So, an alphabetical listing would be good, as well as sorted by type movies, docos etc

Keep an option for time based for those times where you need this, but why not a variety of sorting to suit different ways of viewing?

[IanSav]

Hi ChrisPayne,

Welcome!

And you make a very good point! Perhaps this can be an alternative EPG view for those who want it. I could be tempted to give it a try.

Regards,
Ian.

[pvogel]

Having read through this thread I found most people were concerned with an EPG view that showed things on a timeline. Given one of the big reasons for having a PVR is to watch TV when you want to, rather than when you are forced to, I would have thought an ideal EPG was more about what is on rather than when it is on.

So, an alphabetical listing would be good, as well as sorted by type movies, docos etc

Keep an option for time based for those times where you need this, but why not a variety of sorting to suit different ways of viewing?

I second that suggestion. After using TiVo for many years I find the grid style epg quite frustrating. All I have ever used until now is an alphabetical list of everything in the current guide.

I guess the grid could be improved by having a search facility that takes you to the show you want.

PV

[NPR]

I love the BW, but I'm left cold by the EPG format... Really bland.

I'm interested in the opinions of the coders amongst us if the following 'style' is achievable.

'Nebula Electronics' EPG http://www.nebula-electronics.com/

It's the 'bling' factor and legibility that I like. It's not perfect, but it looks professional and accessible, with the smaller font allowing more detail.

Less DOS, more AppleTV ver2...

[peteru]

Great on a computer monitor or a "True HD" (1080) screen.

OK on "HD Ready" (720~768) screen.

Unusable on a SD TV connected using composite cable.

However, that's not the end of the world. The UI could be designed in such a way that it adapts to the resolution of the display. The current BWiz UI isn't, but that does not mean that it's not possible. It's just that it would require a fair amount of time and money/effort to achieve. If the BWiz platform was more open and people could design their own skins...

[tonymy01]

I think what Rod (and yourself and Eric &Peter et al) have started is the ball rolling to convince Beyonwiz "ok, don't release the source for your proprietry bits, but get us the toolchain and source for all GPL bits" and may help to allow the development of all sorts of extras for the Wiz.
But I am guessing we will need an ARM assembler expert to provide a few hooks into the Wizdvp app (which I am guessing we will never get the source to) to enable modding things like EPG presentation etc, and may help fasttrack a TAP-API type enviroment which would avoid the hooks, avoid giving away Beyonwiz intellectual property, but make this one of the most sought after HD-PVRs in the world.
Regards

[prl]

There's a big problem with trying to "get into" the wizdvp source - there's no symbol table. This makes dissassembly/source reconstruction pretty hard, even if you know ARM assembler.

[NPR]

Great on a computer monitor or a "True HD" (1080) screen.

OK on "HD Ready" (720~768) screen.

Unusable on a SD TV connected using composite cable.

However, that's not the end of the world. The UI could be designed in such a way that it adapts to the resolution of the display. The current BWiz UI isn't, but that does not mean that it's not possible. It's just that it would require a fair amount of time and money/effort to achieve. If the BWiz platform was more open and people could design their own skins...

Thanks, I understand the issue now. A scalable EPG/UI res would make a lot of sense, though from what you're saying I'm glad I'm not the one who'd have to code it.

Nonetheless I think that an EPG/UI res should reflect the unit's intention; HD TV. It's a pity the default has to support the lowest common denominator res.

[prl]

The fonts used in the BWs aren't scalable; they're just bitmaps. There are 6 font files; normal size, bold normal size, large, and teletext normal, teletext national characters and teletext graphics characters. If you've unpacked a firmware package, the fonts are in wizdvp/guidata/bitmaps/font-*.bmp.

It's not going to be easy to have a good scalable EPG GUI without either scalable fonts or at least more font sizes.

[jpp]

I still think a Time line based EPG is the wrong way to go (I realise that just about every other EPG is that way).

EPG stands for Electronic Program Guide. Time line based EPGs are not guides in my book. They are really only usefull for setting recording timers - you can't browse a Time LIne EPG like you can a Printed GUIDE.

Luckily, and I mean that , we only have a few channels here compared to many overseas countries, so we are saved from having n channels repeating n pretty meaningless material, and a Printed Guide format style EPG like JustEPG (see the first post in this thread - just click on the link in my sig) can show all available primary FTA channels on the one page. Once the broadcasters start using their MUX channels to air different material, one page isn't enough any more. But, add a second page (as JE does now already) and you can quickly with just one keystroke go the the second page, just like turning a page. You can easily expand that to 3 , 4 or even more pages.

Right now I am using JE's second page for the sister channels - makes setting up overlapping timers on adjacent programs on the same "channel" a breeze as using a sister channel is seen as a different channel as far as the PVR's logic is concerned. Naturally, you can do the same on the Wiz. - it's just more clumsy to do so.

[sadler8]

Hey Guys
Not sure if this has been suggested previously or not, but.... I would like to see a function on the free to air EPG, that allows you to 'mark' or 'highlight' a program coming up later that night/day and a reminder pop up on screen or even better change channel automatically to 'highlighted' program for you when it starts. For instance, when you don't won't to record ( maybe running out of HDD ), but you don't want to miss it because you have forgotten while watching something else or cooking dinner or something.
Cheers

P.S. if it is already possible. Please explain!!

[Gully]

You can do what you want by creating a view timer. Exactly the same way as with a normal recording but just it from record to view.

So highlight the program, press record twice and make the change.

[madmax]

P.S. if it is already possible. Please explain!!

It is. It's called a View timer. Press PLAY instead of REC on the EPG (if your EPG Action setting = Change Svc) or press OK twice (if your EPG Action setting = Set Timer).

[sadler8]

Thanks gully.

Pretty simple really. D'oh!

[Gully]

Thanks gully.

You're welcome

Pretty simple really. D'oh!

True

[oldgeezer]

My first post, - ever! So a bit of background. Been retired for about 12 years, comfortable, so got a few "toys" - 4 wheels, 2 wheels, electronic "gadgets". Then there's the workshop - vehicle hoist, lathe, milling machine and all the associated tools, 6' sheet metal folder, MIG, TIG and MMA (arc) welders, heaps of bench mounted power tools, manual, air and electric hand tools. Several computers, gave windoze the flick acouple of years ago, built a "super computer" from MSY's partz list and installed Linux. A friend, also retired, and I have often bought "stuff" for evaluation. A lot went straight into recycle bin cos it was cr*p. Included in the "evaluation" were several STB's/PVR's, including Panasonic, Strong, cuppla Kogans, Noontec, A-Stone, LG, BeyonWiz and others forgotten about. My friend settled for Strong. I liked BeyonWiz. Bought 3 for myself (Lounge, bedroom and workshop) and on my recomendation, several friends bought them as well. Then came the T3. Hmmmmm. A bit (lot?) different!!!! Probably just as steep a "learning curve" as the jump to Linux! However, I am perservering with it, BUT...it has some really dumb (in my opinion) features! Let's take the EPG for a start. First of all, it takes a while "to gather information". Once it has the info and you want to "arrow up", or down, to another service, when you reach the top, it "pages up", not the next line. This is user selectable on my other BW's. Yeah, I know you can put more "lines" on the page, but ya gotta be able to read them!! Same applys if you arrow right or left - at edge of screen it "pages" across instead of by event.
Now, let's say it is 4.00pm on a Tuesday. You arrow forward to 8.30pm and then jump to, say Friday, where you see several programs that you want to record. You select one and set it up to record. Where does the EPG go now? Back to 4.00pm Tuesday, so you gotta do it all again to record the others!!
There is more, but let's see what happens to this post first! If I have missed the "fixes" in the forums, let me know.

[prl]

...
Now, let's say it is 4.00pm on a Tuesday. You arrow forward to 8.30pm and then jump to, say Friday, where you see several programs that you want to record. You select one and set it up to record. Where does the EPG go now? Back to 4.00pm Tuesday, so you gotta do it all again to record the others!!
There is more, but let's see what happens to this post first! If I have missed the "fixes" in the forums, let me know.

This is Bug #172 - Graphical EPG loses position with timer manipulation in the T3 bug tracker.

[Krusty]

This is Bug #172 - Graphical EPG loses position with timer manipulation in the T3 bug tracker.

Peter, Has the EPG issue I mentioned (in bug reports) several days back been acknowledged? An example: It's Wednesday 6:00pm. You go forward (channel up) to Friday, you then page forward (6) then page back (4), the issue is that you are two days ahead but can NOT go back to a time prior to 6:00pm on Friday using button 4.

[prl]

This is Bug #172 - Graphical EPG loses position with timer manipulation in the T3 bug tracker.

Peter, Has the EPG issue I mentioned (in bug reports) several days back been acknowledged? An example: It's Wednesday 6:00pm. You go forward (channel up) to Friday, you then page forward (6) then page back (4), the issue is that you are two days ahead but can NOT go back to a time prior to 6:00pm on Friday using button 4.

No. But I'll have a look at it over the weekend.