[Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 15:08

peteru wrote:I think there was a recent report that confirmed that the tuner did not reject FM too well. Installing an FM trap apparently solved the issue for at least one user. It may be worth a try.

One of the things that has changed in my setup that may have improved my situation from its starting point was the use of a Kingray triplexer to feed VHF bands I and II to my FM Receiver, and VHF band III and UHF bands IV and V to the PVRs and TV.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 16:57

prl wrote:Hi, Madness. Some more information would be useful: especially what transmitters you're receiving from, how far away you are and what your antenna setup is. All that said, it's pretty difficult to diagnose reception problems via the forum, and you may be best served by getting in a professional antenna installer to check your setup.

I've asked the land lord to arrange for someone to check out the ariel. On another note, I have just discovered something. When we change the channel from 1080i to 420p it works fine. Is there a way to assign a specific channel a signal quality?

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 17:36

Madness wrote:
prl wrote:Hi, Madness. Some more information would be useful: especially what transmitters you're receiving from, how far away you are and what your antenna setup is. All that said, it's pretty difficult to diagnose reception problems via the forum, and you may be best served by getting in a professional antenna installer to check your setup.
I've asked the land lord to arrange for someone to check out the ariel. On another note, I have just discovered something. When we change the channel from 1080i to 420p it works fine. Is there a way to assign a specific channel a signal quality?

420p? Do you mean 480p or 720p?

There's no way to set the Beyonwiz output resolution (SETUP>Config>A/V Output>Component Video (or HDMI Video) on a per-service basis.

This shouldn't do anything to the tuner or reception side of things, it just controls how the result of decoding the image is scaled to be presented to your TV.

I don't understand how that change can affect reception issues.

I would expect that if your signal quality for Ten ranges between 20% and 65%, you'd have something between dreadful and no picture. Can you describe a bit more what the "reception issues" are that you see on 10, apart from the abysmal signal quality?

The fact that you have high signal strength but low quality makes interference of some sort a possibility, and perhaps peteru's suggestion for an FM trap is worth a try.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 16:09

Sorry, reception issues range from a blank screen with sound, a display saying no signal detected to boxes on the screen.

If I press the 'tv out' button it displays 'HDMI PAL - 1080i" which is where I have the most problems but if I keep on pressing to 'tv out' button it eventually goes to 'HDMI PAL - 576p' which displays a much better picture.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 17:34

Hi Madness,

Madness wrote:Sorry, reception issues range from a blank screen with sound, a display saying no signal detected to boxes on the screen.

If I press the 'tv out' button it displays 'HDMI PAL - 1080i" which is where I have the most problems but if I keep on pressing to 'tv out' button it eventually goes to 'HDMI PAL - 576p' which displays a much better picture.

This sounds more like a compatibility issue with your TV rather than a reception quality problem.

Regards,
Ian.

fredofrog · Post by **fredofrog** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 08:41

You may not have a 1080i/p compatible TV e.g. CRT or older/some Kmart LCD/plasma's

BW Tuner won't output 1080i on those older sets so it has the other resolution settings which are SD in it's various forms and HD720p.

If you have a full HD or HD that says 1080i is an available setting then it may be that your output/input (BW >> TV) is insufficient . I think HDMI cables give you 1080i while component up to 720p and composite 576i/p. Not all the BW output settings worked on my 1080p plasma so it's a matter of having the TV to match the BW output resolution.

The signal issue arises (i.e. black screen and message) if reception is inconsistent or fortuitous in your area such as it is in mine for ABC and SBS.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:26

Hi Fredofrog,

Component cables are quite capable of delivering 1080i video information.

Regards,
Ian.

pjc3 · Post by **pjc3** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:10

Component is capable of 1080p. Also I believe composite is only capable of 576i.

Zeph · Post by **Zeph** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 21:19

Just regarding the 576/1080 issue, I have had the same thing for quite some time, only on ABC though. 1080 causes it to skip, the sound scratches in and out etc, switch it to 576 and it is fine. Its been annoying but I just leave the thing at 576 and be done with it.
Sadly now 576 is stuffing up on aswell ABC, only ever ABC. I can use the tuner in the TV (Samsung LCD w HD Tuner) which is running off the 'out' on the BW, and it is perfect, flick back to the box and it is skipping.

I dont think it is a tuner issue, I think there is a problem with decoding/encoding

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 14:27

Hi Zeph,

What version firmware are you running? Upgrade to the latest, if you aren't running it, and tell us what the Tuner Information screen tells you.

Regards,
Ian.

Zeph · Post by **Zeph** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 08:36

Already on the latest firmware.
I'll check the tuner info in detail tonight, but I did some more testing and I was able to find a similar tuner information page on my TV for its internal tuner.
Both the Beyonwiz and the TV experience drops in signal quality/strength, but the beyonwiz will drop to 0 and skip, where the TV will drop to the 80-90% range and carry on unaffected (at worst a few blocks flash green/pink).
Popping ABC up to full 1080 now and I basically can't get a picture at all, when in guide mode it can almost put one into the top corner, but exit out to regular watching and i get nothing but scratchy sound.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 09:12

Sounds like you are right on the digital cliff edge though. The WIz tuners will be getting 3.5dB less signal than your TV, as they have a splitter on the antenna signal to feed both internal tuners (unless of course you are feeding your TV from the Wiz output rather than a seperate feed?)
Anyway, given you have borderline reception, is there anything you can do to improve it, such as make sure you use quad shielded RG6 coax (including the fly lead from wall plate to Wiz), reduce the number of splitters you might have in the house, get your masthead amplifier setup a little better (gain adjusted, splitter installed as close to the masthead as practically possible), antenna pointed in the correct direction for the flakier channels etc.
Also, double check you are tuned to the frequency you expect, if you just look at LCNs (the logical channel numbers you normally see with digital), it is more difficult to see if you are receiving duplicates that you may be tuned to the poorer of the duplicates. Press "list" during TV viewing to see all your channels, and to see channel details etc, and ensure you don't have any duplicates.
Regards

Zeph · Post by **Zeph** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 08:46

I am feeding my TV from the Wiz output, so I assume that any loss in signal caused by supporting the dual tuners is also passed through to my TV?
If that is not the case and my TV is getting a stronger signal, that will explain part of the problem.
Though I am still intrigued by the fact that different output resolutions can affect image and sound stability.

Anyway I had another look last night, reception was unwatchable on the wiz (ABC Only), mostly no image and the occasional scratch of sound. Switched to the tuner in the TV (remember it is fed from the out on the wiz) and it was fine.
Some details for the wiz. (By the way I am in Newcastle)
Tuner: Main
Freq: 592.500
Bandwidth: 7mhz
Modulation: 64QAM
Mode: 8K
Guard Interval: 1/16
Code Rate: 3/4
Lock Status: Lock
SIgnal Strength: 70-75%
Signal Quality: 0-50% (which is much lower than normal, no doubt why i couldnt get anything up on the wiz)

The signal on the TV was sitting around 40% but it was displaying a perfectly fine picture and sound.
Some other bits of data the TV was displaying
Multiplex: 37C
TSID 0223 ONID 1010

I have two digital ABC 1 channels, on 2 and 22, doesnt seem to make any difference which I choose.
Also I have had the wiz and been at my current address for over a year now, the 1080 issues came on pretty early but the loss of reception for ABC at 576 is very recent.

It could be that ABC are playing with their equipment or something like that, my concerns are not that I may have bad reception (you cant help that) but that the TV (being fed from the wiz) gets far better reception, and the reception changes when I change output resolutions. Neither of these seem normal.
I have previously tried changing from HDMI to Component for the 1080 issue, I have the cables out to try that again, just to rule out a bad connection to the TV, ill do that when I get the chance.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 09:00

So that UHF ABC is definitely the same frequency on your TV also? (I am not talking about the LCN btw, I am talking about the 592.5MHz.)
The resolution affecting the problem is definitely a curve ball though, I have no idea what that could be!? But regardless, you are borderline (40% on the TV is terrible). You are going to have to improve your reception anyway if you want trouble free viewing.
Newcastle has two places you can point at too, doesn't it? And one is horizontal, one is vertical if I remember correctly when driving up to my mates place up there and seeing the UHF antennas rotated 90degrees to the normal plane.
Regards

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 09:05

Hi Zeph. I can't offer any good reasons why changing the output resolution on the Beyonwiz changes your reception. The only thing I can think of is that there is some interference between your video cabling (or the internal video signal paths in the Beyonwiz) and your antenna cabling, and the change in video signal frequency when you go from 576i to 1080i is having some effect.

It's a somewhat disputed claim, but many people on the forum have seen more reliable reception on other devices than on the Beyonwiz when they are all connected to a single feed. Certainly on the Beyonwiz signal strength and signal quality numbers you give, I'm a bit surprised you get any reception, let alone good reception.

Does the signal strength & signal quality improve if you disconnect the TV antenna fly lead from the Beyonwiz, and watch the live TV through the A/V connection? Not suggesting this as a solution, but disconnecting the TV antenna from the Beyonwiz should give the Beyonwiz more signal strength.

Tony's suggestions about improving your antenna setup are good ones. You should also perhaps check whether the antenna is pointing directly at the transmitters. If you don't think that you're able to follow up on checking and changing your antenna setup along the sort of lines that Tony suggests, you may need to get a good TV technician to come out and measure your signal strengths and suggest improvements.

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 09:45

tonymy01 wrote:So that UHF ABC is definitely the same frequency on your TV also? (I am not talking about the LCN btw, I am talking about the 592.5MHz.)
The resolution affecting the problem is definitely a curve ball though, I have no idea what that could be!? But regardless, you are borderline (40% on the TV is terrible). You are going to have to improve your reception anyway if you want trouble free viewing.
Newcastle has two places you can point at too, doesn't it? And one is horizontal, one is vertical if I remember correctly when driving up to my mates place up there and seeing the UHF antennas rotated 90degrees to the normal plane.
Regards

I suspect that Multiplex37C on the TV means channel 37, which is 592.5MHZ, which is the channel the Beyonwiz is tuned to.

All the main Newcastle digital transmitters (Mt Sugarloaf) are UHF band with horizontal polarisation (antenna elements horizontal -- there isn't really a "normal" for polarisation). The analog transmissions from Sugarloaf, UHF and VHF are also all horizontal polarisation. The Sugarloaf digital transmitters are also unusually powerful, 250kW for ABC, and 500kW for everyone else.

There are additional digital transmitters for the Newcastle area at Kotara and Merewether. The Kotara transmitters are vertically polarised, and the Merewether transmitters are horizontally polarised, like Sugarloaf. It looks as though those two transmitters are to fill in in areas that are effectively shaded from the Sugarloaf transmitters by the hill at New Lambton Heights, however, they transmit on the same frequencies as the transmitters on Mt Sugarloaf. They are all much lower power (50W-400W) than the Sugarloaf transmitters.

Zeph, what part of Newcastle are you in? Just a nearby suburb will do, so I can get an idea of what sort of reception you should be getting, and which transmitter you should be using. Or check out the ABC's reception map for Newcastle, Kotara and Merewether.

As a rough rule of thumb, if you can see the top of Mt Sugarloaf from your roof, you should probably point your antenna there (and its short UHF elements should be horizontal). If not, it's less clear without knowing more about your location to guess which transmitters are best. Kotara and Merewether seem to be "fill in" transmitters for areas with poor reception from Sugarloaf.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:20

Yeah, my friend lives in the Kotara area, hence me spotting the vertically polarised setups there (and often normal horizontally polarised VHF antennas pointed in a different direction, but not always).

Regards

fredofrog · Post by **fredofrog** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:33

Zeph

If you live in southern part of newcastle or even near that area (e.g. Lake Macquarie) you may be subject to the problems ABC and SBS have of using the same frequency at both Mt Sugarloaf and Forresters Beach, meaning that tuning to FB will have a problem as the MtS reception will override the FB reception and you get a combination of breakups or nothing at all.

If you point to MtS (clear sight) then it's an unusual problem. Most antenna installers have no issues with reception from MtS in any part of Newcastle (Wallsend might by an exception for SBS) only the badlands between Warners Bay and Doyalson

You may see some homes near the Warners Bay main road along the lake (Speers Point end) have their reception from FB.

I use the input line for a second SD STB for ABC and SBS only from MtS using an old indoor antenna and use the outdoor antenna for the FB reception to the BW.

Otherwise no TEN/ONE HD (or other Sydney based channels if you need them).

j s · Post by **j s** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:29

prl wrote:
tonymy01 wrote:So that UHF ABC is definitely the same frequency on your TV also? (I am not talking about the LCN btw, I am talking about the 592.5MHz.)
The resolution affecting the problem is definitely a curve ball though, I have no idea what that could be!? But regardless, you are borderline (40% on the TV is terrible). You are going to have to improve your reception anyway if you want trouble free viewing.
Newcastle has two places you can point at too, doesn't it? And one is horizontal, one is vertical if I remember correctly when driving up to my mates place up there and seeing the UHF antennas rotated 90degrees to the normal plane.
Regards
I suspect that Multiplex37C on the TV means channel 37, which is 592.5MHZ, which is the channel the Beyonwiz is tuned to.

All the main Newcastle digital transmitters (Mt Sugarloaf) are UHF band with horizontal polarisation (antenna elements horizontal -- there isn't really a "normal" for polarisation). The analog transmissions from Sugarloaf, UHF and VHF are also all horizontal polarisation. The Sugarloaf digital transmitters are also unusually powerful, 250kW for ABC, and 500kW for everyone else.

There are additional digital transmitters for the Newcastle area at Kotara and Merewether. The Kotara transmitters are vertically polarised, and the Merewether transmitters are horizontally polarised, like Sugarloaf. It looks as though those two transmitters are to fill in in areas that are effectively shaded from the Sugarloaf transmitters by the hill at New Lambton Heights, however, they transmit on the same frequencies as the transmitters on Mt Sugarloaf. They are all much lower power (50W-400W) than the Sugarloaf transmitters.

Zeph, what part of Newcastle are you in? Just a nearby suburb will do, so I can get an idea of what sort of reception you should be getting, and which transmitter you should be using. Or check out the ABC's reception map for Newcastle, Kotara and Merewether.

As a rough rule of thumb, if you can see the top of Mt Sugarloaf from your roof, you should probably point your antenna there (and its short UHF elements should be horizontal). If not, it's less clear without knowing more about your location to guess which transmitters are best. Kotara and Merewether seem to be "fill in" transmitters for areas with poor reception from Sugarloaf.

The ABC uses a SFN (Ch37 592500) for the entire Central Coast (Bouddi to Newcastle) with a mixture of horizontal and vertical polarities.

As your TV gets a clean signal from the same feed this sounds like yet another example of the lower sensitivity of the BW tuners, an issue that BW has yet to do anything about (apart from the original post on this thread).

If you can improve your signal quality (by the means suggested earlier) you may be able to get far enough away from the cliff that the tuner inadequacy ceases to matter.

Zeph · Post by **Zeph** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:55

I am in Hamilton, on the flat near beaumont st. Rented place so I am not too sure what the setup with the aerial is nor what can be seen from the roof. I don't want to mess with it if I can avoid it.

I am interested in the idea of noise on the cables, Ive got the aerial, cat5, hdmi and power all running through a fairly small hole in the back of the cabinet, and previous steps like unpluging and replugging the HDMI can cause temporary changes. If I get a chance over the weekend I might try pull everything apart onto the floor and keep it all nicely seperated, see what happens.
I'll also try the aerial straight into the TV and see what difference that makes to the signal quality. The 40s I saw the other day were unusually low, it is normally much higher 70s or ever 90s.

I had the component cables on last night, they had the same resolution issues, they would work nicely at 576i and then progressively worse as I stepped up through 576p, 720p and 1080i. Keep in mind this resolution issue is also only on ABC, I can watch the other channels at 1080.

prl · Post by **prl** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:39

Zeph wrote:I am in Hamilton, on the flat near beaumont st. Rented place so I am not too sure what the setup with the aerial is nor what can be seen from the roof. I don't want to mess with it if I can avoid it.

I am interested in the idea of noise on the cables, Ive got the aerial, cat5, hdmi and power all running through a fairly small hole in the back of the cabinet, and previous steps like unpluging and replugging the HDMI can cause temporary changes. If I get a chance over the weekend I might try pull everything apart onto the floor and keep it all nicely seperated, see what happens.
I'll also try the aerial straight into the TV and see what difference that makes to the signal quality. The 40s I saw the other day were unusually low, it is normally much higher 70s or ever 90s.

I had the component cables on last night, they had the same resolution issues, they would work nicely at 576i and then progressively worse as I stepped up through 576p, 720p and 1080i. Keep in mind this resolution issue is also only on ABC, I can watch the other channels at 1080.

I had a look to see what line-of-sight might be like from the Mt Sugarloaf transmitters to Hamilton, and it looks as though there should be reasonable line of sight from Mt Sugarloaf, but it might depend on just where you were in Hamilton and what buildings were around you. If you didn't have good reception from Sugarloaf, Merewether looks like the logical alternative. But it sounds like doing anything to the antenna isn't an option anyway.

My suggestion about your antenna connection was to try your setup with only the Beyonwiz connected to the antenna, ans see whether this helped with your reception problems on the Beyonwiz, either the signal strength/quality numbers or how the BW behaved.

There's also a possibility that the building's antenna wiring may be not performing as well as it should.

It's beginning to sound like you may need to get a good antenna technician in to measure what's going on and see if it can be improved. Being on a shared system complicates things, especially if everyone else is getting good reception.

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 15:12

Finally fixed my dodgy reception on ch 7.
I moved from 90 odd Km's away to now about 40 km's away.
Bit drastic, but had to do something.

Pity, won't be able to test it if ever anything is done about the fragile front end.

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 16:25

grampus wrote:Pity, won't be able to test it if ever anything is done about the fragile front end.

I believe you can get pills for that over the internet.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 16:41

peteru wrote:I believe you can get pills for that over the internet.

LOLOLOL!

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 17:11

peteru wrote:
grampus wrote:Pity, won't be able to test it if ever anything is done about the fragile front end.
I believe you can get pills for that over the internet.

ollac · Post by **ollac** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 13:49

Hi I am new to ths and do not have a gret technicla brain. I have moved to Speers Point (Lake Macqauire area) and in the past few weeks noticed soem serious loss of signal. ABC is just about gone and glitches all the time - but it was working fine for about a fortnight. I have rung the ABC and they have said there is nothing wrong with their end it must be the equipment I have. I have the SP1 about 7 months old.

SBS ia now on the fritz as well - can;t watch any cricket!! And Channel 9 was really glitchy for about a week but now seems to be fine. Ch7 and 10 seem to have no problems at any time.

Any thoughts - I am a little confused about most of the stuff written. I have it plugges in to a roof ariiel (internal) and into a panasonic plasma.

Also I am having the HDD error message coming up a couple of times I do the sacn and it seems fine afterwards. Is this normal? Bit scared that it will die.

Alod dopeople have issues loading DVD's - it seems to take for ages and it seems like it gets stuck and you can't iuse all main menue options on the DVD.

Cheers

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 14:20

Hi Ollac,

Welcome!

The reception issues are typically related to antenna or antenna cabling problems. These would be best checked by an antenna installer/repairer.

The HDD errors are a bit of a worry. They may just be caused because of firmware crashing resultiing from the very bad reception signal or they could be an indication of a hardware issue. Can you please tell us more about the problem. Remember to include details like firmware version, age of the unit, what you are doing and trying when the problems occur?

Regards,
Ian.

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 14:49

ollac wrote: I have it plugges in to a roof ariiel (internal) and into a panasonic plasma.

Alod dopeople have issues loading DVD's - it seems to take for ages and it seems like it gets stuck and you can't iuse all main menue options on the DVD.

Cheers

It seems that you are only about 12 km's away from Mt Sugarloaf, and your aerial should be pointing at about 320 degrees.

Even though you have an internal aerial, It shouldn't really be an issue.
but, you have to give the BW every assistance you can to ensure a good signal beingpresented to the box. Maybe have a good look at your connections?

As far as the DVD's are concerned, there are some known problems in that area, and the BW people are still addressing that.
have a look at the Bug and wish list at
http://www.beyonwiz.com.au/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4024

If you aren't already on FW vers 301, you probably should be as I think there were some minor fixes to the DVD code in that release.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 17:00

You didn't say if you moved within the same transmission area or whether you cleared all the services and did a rescan?

ollac · Post by **ollac** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 07:05

Hi all,

what a great site - lots of good infomration so far. OK, I have just loaded the latest firmware version 01.05.301 and just performed a full rescan. All stations were found except for SBS. However, when going to the ABC channels, the notice of no signal found appears and this is also for the radio station.Prime, Ten, NBN, One, and GO! all work fine it seems. I will unplug and replug all ariel connections in the loungeroom later today to see if that helps.

I have moved from Dubbo to Speers Point, and for the first couple of weeks, there seemed to be no issues with reception, except for the odd glitch but I am told this is common with digital signals - even pay tv apparently gets it!!

My system is a new one that was given to me from BW in January this year. I had a previous model but the HDD error messges were appearing so it went in for repairs and when the unit was returned, the box was damaged and the unit had a dent (the courier), so BW were great in giving me a brand new unit. By the way the service guys that I spoke to were also really great in their feedback and information when I spoke to them over the phone. So my system is about 9 months old (320gb model).

When the latest HDD error messages are occuring, it seems to be a little random, it has occured this week that I am aware of - I think once when going from watching a DVD to TV and the other when trying to access a file (recorded program). Also I tried to record something on NBN and when I went to check it out, it was trying to record something from PRIME with the times of 00:00 to 00:00 and it was doing it twice!! Very weird and the only way to stop it recording was to turn the unit off so the recording would stop. When the error HDD message came up , the check was performed and the all OK was given.

I have also just noticed in the last few days, and more specifically last night, I went to the TV guide, pressed record for the AFL finals and it went red, but the program never recorded although the program was still red. I went to cancel the recording, and even when it said that Ihad other rpograms recording at the same time (ARL and AFL), it asked if I wanted to cancel the earlier recording or cnacel, it went a bit funny in that it would not let me cancel any recording and it kept going backwards and forwards to the EPG and the cancel screen fro recording. The remote would not work properly so I had to turn the unit off and then restart it to get it going again. I then went to the EPG and pressed record and it worked. Is this common?

Hope this helps you in your thinking.

Cheers

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 17:49

Hi Ollac,

When you say that you turn the unit off after an issue, does the unit take about 30 seconds to actually switch off and then when you restart it you get the HDD check?

All the issues you are describing really do sound like they are caused by a reception issue. You should get the antenna and all cabling checked.

Regards,
Ian.

ollac · Post by **ollac** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 20:43

Hi,

I think I am resigned to getting an ariel person in to check out my system - maybe the antenna is finally onits way out. I do get the HDD check after the unit is turned off and then on again.

Thanks for all of your help everyone.

Mambo131 · Post by **Mambo131** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 20:23

With the mix of information and opinion on the tuner reception, has the issue been resolved? I had been using a P1 in Brisbane since mid 2008 without any reception issues whatsoever. I moved to Bayside Melbourne last August and have had major reception issues since. I have replaced the antenna and recabled the entire system without improvement.
I get at different times of the day, usually early evening, a very broken reception and the signal strength meter shows fluctuating strength from very weak to the top of the green. This in itself is quite strange. Even more odd is that it will be really bad on say Ten (most commonly), but all other channels are good. Other times, Ten is good and Seven or Nine will have reception issues with exactly the same fluctuating signal strength. I'm thinking maybe one of the receivers is faulty. Recorded programs suffer the same issues, so I expect that rules out TV compatibility problems (same TV as has been used in Brisbane).
I am running f/w 301 and have my TV connected to the out antenna of the BW. I have done a channel scan a few times and the full factory reset twice including clearing all services.
Turning the BW off always fixes the problem, with no need to connect the tv directly to the antenna. Turning the BW on again and within a few minutes the reception goes bad again.
Ideas anyone... I did try a King Ray masthead amp too and it made little difference unfortunately.

And I have read through this discussion and think I may be experiencing what everyone else on this thread is experiencing. I'll try an FM trap next.

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 21:21

Have you tried running it without the aerial out to the TV?

That has been raised as an issue by some people.

Mambo131 · Post by **Mambo131** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 19:48

Thanks for the info Gully. Unfortunately it made no difference. I'm sure it is that we are in a marginal reception area, so I'll look at moving the antenna or trying a higher gain one.

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Sat May 01, 2010 07:08

Mambo131 wrote: I moved to Bayside Melbourne last August and have had major reception issues since. I have replaced the antenna and recabled the entire system without improvement.

Just to give us a clearer picture. (No pun intended, just slipped out) What suburb are you in?

Mambo131 · Post by **Mambo131** » Sat May 01, 2010 20:17

We are in Sandringham. I confirmed today that it is a weak signal. The picture went to crap on ABC today, which doesn't happen often on ABC, so I tuned into ABC analogue and it was very snowy. By the time I got the ladder out to get to the antenna (to try some direction adjustments) the analogue picture had come good. Switching back to ABC digital, the picture stayed good for the remainder of the time.
So it must be the Beyonwiz has a slightly lower receiver drop-out point than the TV, but is not at fault. Once I fix the signal level problem, all should be fine..... Easier said than done. I spoke to a local TV guy who reckons this area is in a reception black spot. The fix in his opinion was to 'get Foxtel'. That's not going to happen...

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Sun May 02, 2010 06:27

Mambo131 wrote:We are in Sandringham. I confirmed today that it is a weak signal. The picture went to crap on ABC today, which doesn't happen often on ABC, so I tuned into ABC analogue and it was very snowy. By the time I got the ladder out to get to the antenna (to try some direction adjustments) the analogue picture had come good. Switching back to ABC digital, the picture stayed good for the remainder of the time.
So it must be the Beyonwiz has a slightly lower receiver drop-out point than the TV, but is not at fault. Once I fix the signal level problem, all should be fine..... Easier said than done. I spoke to a local TV guy who reckons this area is in a reception black spot. The fix in his opinion was to 'get Foxtel'. That's not going to happen...

get Foxtel? Must have a kickback!

I believe you're right about the receiver.
I have long been critical re the front end, as you may see in previous posts.
But like Dr Strangelove, I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb.
The BW needs to have the very best of aerial setup.

I resolved my bad reception problem. Moved house.

IanB · Post by **IanB** » Sun May 02, 2010 10:20

A discussion to clarify the the Signal Quality and Strength parameters from the Tuner information display.

Andrew wrote:We generate the Signal Quality value in % from the BER.
We change the BER of 0~30,000 to 0~99.

I take this to mean any Bit Error Rate of less than 1 in 30000 gives a reading of 99%. Which for a ~20MBit/sec data stream would mean greater than 666 bits in error per second results in a lower quality percentage value.

So something like this is likely :-

Quality = 99 * (Total_Bits_Received / (Bits_in_Error * 30000))
If (Quality > 99) Quality = 99

Andrew wrote:As you check on our users? manual, the proper signal strength for our PVR is -20dBm ~ -80dBm.
-20dBm implies the maximum signal strength which our PVR can handle.
And -80dBm is the minimum signal strength for our PVR.
What I mentioned on the above post is that our PVR can handle weak signals around -80dbm ~ -84dBm.

And from other posts and investigation the Signal Strength value is only related to the gain of the IF amplifier stages.

Thus any solitary signal between -20dBm ~ -80dBm is likely to always read 99%.

The rub is in real life the input signal is not solitary, it is the entire pass band of either vhf or uhf signals. So the unknown RF amplifier gain is likely to be set for the total signal strength of the entire pass band. Leaving the gain of the IF amplifier to normalise the strength of the one signal of interest.

So the Signal Strength value most likely indicates the level of imbalance between the desired signal's level and the aggregate signal level of the entire pass band. And if this value is not in the high 90's then you will probably be having problems due to intermodulation from the stronger signals with the weaker target signal..
_

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun May 02, 2010 13:47

My understanding from Andrew's posts is that the Signal Strength indicator is taken from the gain setting of the AGC. The lower the AGC gain, the higher the inferred signal strength.

I pressed him gently to describe just what the percentages meant, but I never got a reply that satisfied me.

IanB · Post by **IanB** » Sun May 02, 2010 17:54

prl wrote:My understanding from Andrew's posts is that the Signal Strength indicator is taken from the gain setting of the AGC. The lower the AGC gain, the higher the inferred signal strength.

I got the same understanding and from the 'similar' tuner module documentation, TDTM-G352D.pdf, you pointed to I further inferred that it was the IF stage AGC gain level, i.e. "gain of the IF amplifier".

Testing by inserting various amounts of attenuation in the antenna line, seem to confirm this theory. From 6db to 24db attenuation my quality and strength indication do not change. Using my old analogue antenna, which has poor performance above VHF channel 10, gives VHF channel 12, ABC, at about 80% strength. Adding the attenuation from 6db to 18db does not change this value. At 24db attenuation it actually improves to 86%.
_

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun May 02, 2010 18:42

IanB wrote:
prl wrote:My understanding from Andrew's posts is that the Signal Strength indicator is taken from the gain setting of the AGC. The lower the AGC gain, the higher the inferred signal strength.
I got the same understanding and from the 'similar' tuner module documentation, TDTM-G352D.pdf, you pointed to I further inferred that it was the IF stage AGC gain level, i.e. "gain of the IF amplifier".

Testing by inserting various amounts of attenuation in the antenna line, seem to confirm this theory. From 6db to 24db attenuation my quality and strength indication do not change. Using my old analogue antenna, which has poor performance above VHF channel 10, gives VHF channel 12, ABC, at about 80% strength. Adding the attenuation from 6db to 18db does not change this value. At 24db attenuation it actually improves to 86%.
_

Ah, sorry, I didn't realise you'd tried doing some measurements. It seems to confirm the general observation that the Signal Strength indicator isn't all that much use until the signal strength is really bad, and re-reading the part of Andrew's post and your commentary appears to confirm that.

baobab68 · Post by **baobab68** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 23:44

Let me begin by saying that I have *finally* taken the plunge and upgraded from my venerable Toppy 5000 to a DP-LITE.

A friend bought one a few months ago and when I set it up at my house I noted that it had an internal loopback from tuner 1 to tuner 2. The one I've bought is external, weird.

Anyway, bottom line, I am getting some really bad interference on ABC and Channel 10 here in Sydney. When the interference is present, channel 10 is unwatchable and ABC is not really doable either. I'll use Ch 10 as my example because it's way worse than ABC.

I know that I live in an area of marginal signal, and that there is little I can do about that. I have quad-shielded RG6 cable all the way from my Fracarro antenna to the BW. Trouble is, my entire signal is obtained from a reflection from the block of flats down the road. We have no line of site from Ashfield to Artarmon or Kings X. We could put up a huge mast and point to Wollongong but it would have to be heeee-uuuge. Our poor old ramshackle house would likely collapse under the weight or blow away in the first storm.

What I am seeing is that when channel 10 is ok, signal strength is reported by the BW as being about 75% and quality 99%. When it suddenly goes bad, strength is about the same and quality has dipped to 38% or so. If I move the antenna cable to the toppy, it's managing slightly better at maintaining an image but still not really watchable. (I won't compare as I know the two devices measure them differently. Weirdly (and this is probably coincidence), the interference on ch 10 seems to start a few mins after the BW is turned on, lasts a few minutes then goes away.

At the advice of a good friend who's on these forums a lot, I've ensured I don't have any duplicate LCN's. Seems like voodoo to me but I thought it worth a try.

I tried recording on both tuners in case it was interference from the HDD, but it doesn't seem to matter.

Anyone got any other suggestions? I don't watch much on Ch 10 so I am not too worried but the ABC could be inconvenient if it fritzed at the wrong time.

I know I should be looking at an antenna solution but the above-mentioned coincidence made me wonder if I have some kind of heat-related hardware problem?

Edit: I've been encourage to delete this post after having to post it in a new thread in order to get a response. I think I'll leave the deletion to the mods. Perhaps it can stay.

Bruce85 · Post by **Bruce85** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 01:26

The other day I had problems receiving ABC's signal during the early efternoon. The signal strength was at 90% and the quality was 0%. I noticed the same problem today at the exact same time, though this time it was on Seven and ABC. The problem occurred on both of my DP-P2s.

My guess is it's a booster problem. The external amplifier on my antenna is less than a year old. I replaced it last year after I experienced a similar problem, but with different channels.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:37

Hi Bruce85,

A signal strength of 90% and a signal quality of 0% seem to indicate a very strong interference to your signal. Check the cables and connectors for any damage to the shielding or loose connections.

Are there any motors, fans, electic tools or anything like that operating at the time of the issues?

Regards,
Ian.

Bruce85 · Post by **Bruce85** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 14:36

IanSav wrote:Hi Bruce85,

A signal strength of 90% and a signal quality of 0% seem to indicate a very strong interference to your signal. Check the cables and connectors for any damage to the shielding or loose connections.

I was thinking about that possibility. If the other channels don't go out over the next week or two then I'll know that impulse noise is the most likely cause.

The signal strength did dip below 90% a few times while I was monitoring it. I took this to mean that the booster might be on its way out. An antenna installer told me that the boosters (masthead amps) tend to go out in three stages. The booster I replaced last year started to play up in a similar manner before it fizzeld out altogether.

IanSav wrote:Are there any motors, fans, electic tools or anything like that operating at the time of the issues?

Regards,
Ian.

There is a Foxtel IQ, a digial receiver/amplifier, speakers and a subwoofer nearby. I cannot recall any motors, fans, tools, microwaves or conventional ovens operating when the problem occurred.

Which machines cause impulse noise?

Thank you for your quick response. I appreciate it.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 16:30

Hi Bruce85,

Bruce85 wrote:Which machines cause impulse noise?

I was thinking along the lines of anything that may have moving parts and may have electrical arcing as part of its function. That is something that is likely to be creating *lots* of electrical noise.

The devices don't need to be close to the Beyonwiz, they can be anywhere near or along the antenna cable path. The stronger the noise the further from the antenna it may be located.

Regards,
Ian.

Bruce85 · Post by **Bruce85** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 22:25

IanSav wrote:Hi Bruce85,
Bruce85 wrote:Which machines cause impulse noise?
I was thinking along the lines of anything that may have moving parts and may have electrical arcing as part of its function. That is something that is likely to be creating *lots* of electrical noise.

The devices don't need to be close to the Beyonwiz, they can be anywhere near or along the antenna cable path. The stronger the noise the further from the antenna it may be located.

Regards,
Ian.

Hi Ian,

I cannot think of anything other than the air conditioning unit, though it's not located near the coaxial cable that runs from the antenna to the TV.

Everything was working well this afternoon.

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 06:17

Bruce85 wrote: Which machines cause impulse noise?

B4 I worked on my Antenna, I had interference every time the fridge door was opened.

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