[Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 17:56

Hi Guys,

I am Andrew Choi, CTO (Chief Technology Officer) of Beyonwiz.

We had tested how our tuner copes with signals according to their strength before we release our box to Australian market.
And our box handles signals properly, which have the strength of -84 ~ -80dBm.
However, we will monitor and check this issue continuously because we still have some users who have trouble with tuner reception.

We have implemented the auto-recovery feature which tries to lock the signal once it is recovered.
This will be added in the next firmware, which is supposed to release in a couple of weeks.

Some users mentioned that our box catches the wrong center frequency, i.e., xxx.625MHz etc instead of xxx.500MHz etc.
According to the Terrestrial Delivery System Descriptor of NIT, some station has the center frequency of xxx.635MHz instead of xxx.500MHz.
Therefore, this is truly proper operation.

And we also have tested if our box has problem of receiving signals if another device is connected to the Loop-through connector.
We found that the secondary device connected to our box does not effect to the signal reception of our box.
However, if the secondary device may generate some noise through the signal cable, it can reduce the performance of our box.

In the next firmware, a new information pop-up will be added.
This is layouted based on Ian?s recommendation, (Thank you, Ian.)
http://home.people.net.au/~iansav/beyon ... l?Screen=3
But we deleted the following parameters; Video format, Audio format, Data rate, Siganl to Noise ratio and UnCorrected Block rate.
We added the following parameters; Tuner, Bandwidth and Lock status.
It will be like this;

Tuner Information
--------------------------------
Service Name 1. TEN HD
Tuner Main
Frequency 690.5MHz
Bandwidth 7MHz
Modulation 64QAM
Mode 8K
Guard Interval 1/16
Code Rate 3/4
Lock Status Lock
Signal Strength 87%
Signal Quality 99%

These are all we have found in our Lab about the tuner reception issue.
Please report based on the above status pop-up if you still have tuner reception issue after the next firmware.
Thank you.

Andrew Choi

@ Please change this post as a sticky post.

prl · Post by **prl** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 18:07

Andrew, thanks, the extra information will help track down some reception problems, I'm sure.

Unfortunately, you say that the best signal strength for the Beyonwiz is -84 ~ -80dBm, but the new display doesn't show the signal strength in dBm. Can you tell us how the Signal Strength percentage relates to the ideal signal strength? What happens if the signal strength exceeds -80dBm? If it does, does the Signal Strength percentage go above 100%?

At what level of Signal Quality would the user expect to have visible reception problems? How does the Signal Quality percentage relate to the Bit Error Rate (BER) or the UNCorrected block rate?

Regards,

DaveR · Post by **DaveR** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 20:03

Thanks Andrew.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 09:18

Hi,

I think it is important to highlight one of Andrew's points...

Andrew wrote:We found that the secondary device connected to our box does not effect to the signal reception of our box. However, if the secondary device may generate some noise through the signal cable, it can reduce the performance of our box.

I think it appropriate to suggest that when people use the antenna output of the Beyonwiz they should be careful to also use a high quality quad shielded cable. A cheap cable connected to the output could work as an antenna to draw in noise and inject it into the Beyonwiz output connector!

People who are having reception issues should also test if the reception improves when any cables connected to the Beyonwiz antenna output connector are removed. If things improve then either the cable, or the device(s) connected after the Beyonwiz are creating a problem.

Regards,
Ian.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 14:40

Hi Peter,

Here is more explanation about the signal strength.

As you check on our users? manual, the proper signal strength for our PVR is -20dBm ~ -80dBm.
-20dBm implies the maximum signal strength which our PVR can handle.
And -80dBm is the minimum signal strength for our PVR.
What I mentioned on the above post is that our PVR can handle weak signals around -80dbm ~ -84dBm.
So, I think that our PVR is okay to receive weak signal because other PVR box suggest its signal strength as -20dBm ~ -78dBm.

Even though the exact way to check the signal strength is in dBm,
we can not calculate the exact value of signal strength in dBm from the data (AGC) which can be gathered from the tuner.
How we tested tuner performance?
We have a broadcasting signal emulator which can control the strength of the signal transmitted to PVR in dBm.
We combine two information of AGC and the signal strength transmitted to our PVR (in dBm) and generate the Signal Strength in % value.
So, the % value does not match to the value in dBm exactly but the % information is reasonable for track the tuner issue if someone have.

We generate the Signal Quality value in % from the BER.
We change the BER of 0~30,000 to 0~99.

This will help you to understand the meaning of our new pop-up.
Thank you.

Andrew Choi

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 15:11

Thank you for getting back on this, Andrew.

I'm still a bit uncertain about your description of the signal strength percentage. I understand that it can't be directly converted into the signal strength in dBm and that it's derived from the tuner AGC.

What I'm trying to work out is what the signal strength percentage would show if the antenna input was receiving a signal that was too strong, more than the allowed -20dBm. Would it show 100% or a number over 100%?

For the BER, is the measure you talk about (the range 0-30000) the number of error bits/second? Does BER = 0 mean Signal Quality = 100%, and BER = 30000 mean Signal Quality = 0%?

Thanks for your help.

regards,

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 15:19

Thank you as well Andrew this will prove very useful.

prl wrote:What I'm trying to work out is what the signal strength percentage would show if the antenna input was receiving a signal that was too strong, more than the allowed -20dBm. Would it show 100% or a number over 100%?

And from what percentage would the signal strength be considered too low?

JKramer · Post by **JKramer** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 17:04

I have a problem that when signal is lost I need to switch to another channel and back to get reception again. That "lock in" feature is going to fix this problem? The unit will recover properly if signal is lost?
Or my issue is different from discussed here?

dcw · Post by **dcw** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 20:44

Andrew wrote:But we deleted the following parameters; Video format, Audio format, Data rate, Siganl to Noise ratio and UnCorrected Block rate.

Hi Andrew

Can you say why you have chosen to omit this information? It would be very useful, and has been requested previously.

Dave.

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 21:48

dcw wrote:
Andrew wrote:But we deleted the following parameters; Video format, Audio format, Data rate, Siganl to Noise ratio and UnCorrected Block rate.
Hi Andrew

Can you say why you have chosen to omit this information? It would be very useful, and has been requested previously.

Dave.

I'd like to see this information, too, but the video format, audio format and the more interesting data rate are service, not channel information, and probably should be in a different popup, the Live TV Info popup, for example..

janilxx · Post by **janilxx** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 03:51

prl wrote:
dcw wrote:
Andrew wrote:But we deleted the following parameters; Video format, Audio format, Data rate, Siganl to Noise ratio and UnCorrected Block rate.
Hi Andrew

Can you say why you have chosen to omit this information? It would be very useful, and has been requested previously.
I'd like to see this information, too, but the video format, audio format and the more interesting data rate are service, not channel information, and probably should be in a different popup, the Live TV Info popup, for example..

I believe many would like to see also this information. But instead of adding more rarely used menu items I would combine all these information into one single dialog, which title could be changed. For example "Broadcast Information" or something like that.

sub3R · Post by **sub3R** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 09:23

I agree ? I don?t think we need any more menus than what has been proposed unless they become sub menus. One item I really miss is the basic video information being received from the TV Networks; eg. 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i, but more detailed video & audio information would of course be better.

Thanks Andrew for your feedback & keeping everyone (not just the beta testers) in the picture, and many thanks Ian & anyone else who contributed for your work on the suggestion.

GarFin · Post by **GarFin** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:52

sub3R wrote:Thanks Andrew for your feedback & keeping everyone (not just the beta testers) in the picture, and many thanks Ian & anyone else who contributed for your work on the suggestion.

+1 Agree with those sentiments , whole heartedly.

Beta testers, do you have some sort of regular 'virtual' (progress/feedback) meeting with BW engineering staff? Perhaps some dot points or meeting minutes for those of us who aren't beta testers but (still) have a vested interest...??

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:47

Hi Gary,

GarFin wrote:Beta testers, do you have some sort of regular 'virtual' (progress/feedback) meeting with BW engineering staff? Perhaps some dot points or meeting minutes for those of us who aren't beta testers but (still) have a vested interest...??

When Steven, the original Beyonwiz Australian product project manager, was well he would often chat to the beta testers about ideas he had for the progression of the firmware development. When he became ill this communication stopped. The new project manager has once again started chatting to the beta testers. We are still getting to know each other.

The communications are quite informal and are probably inappropriate for public release.

Regards,
Ian.

GarFin · Post by **GarFin** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:57

IanSav wrote: The communications are quite informal and are probably inappropriate for public release.
Regards,
Ian.

Some sanitized dot-points perhaps?

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:06

Hi Gary,

GarFin wrote:Some sanitized dot-points perhaps?

The logistics and effort to seek clearances from original authors plus the work of doing the summarising is not realistically viable. Plus, if people think they are going to get quoted, or summarised, in public it will probably stifle the information flow.

Sorry.

Regards,
Ian.

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 15:35

Andrew,

Thanks for your feedback regarding the work being done in this area. I am sure that there are many customers who are happy to hear from you.

Andrew wrote:According to the Terrestrial Delivery System Descriptor of NIT, some station has the center frequency of xxx.635MHz instead of xxx.500MHz.
Therefore, this is truly proper operation.

While the specification would suggest that the NIT should have the correct settings, empirical evidence shows that many Australian broadcasters have issues transmitting correct information. Some broadcasters have big problems even getting the time of day correct.

My recommendation would be to consult the NIT for the initial tuning information, but then actually measure the quality of the signal received at xxx.375 MHz, xxx.500 MHz and at xxx.625 MHz. If the quality of the alternative frequencies is about the same as the quality at the frequency listed in NIT, the use the NIT frequency. If one of the alternative frequencies gives noticeably better reception, use the frequency that gives the best quality reception.

we deleted the following parameters; Video format, Audio format, Data rate, Siganl to Noise ratio and UnCorrected Block rate.

The SNR and UNC are very important for troubleshooting reception issues. Another very important measurement is the BER. Could you please consider adding these if at all possible. I am sure that these numbers will provide an important insight into the problem areas. It is always better to have more information than not enough. In particular, the UNC parameter should be displayed as blocks per time interval (e.g. blocks/second) rather than the raw value that gives the total count of blocks.

We added the following parameters; Tuner, Bandwidth and Lock status.

Having the tuner and lock status is certainly a good idea, however you will find that the bandwidth will always be 7MHz in Australia, due to the way the RF spectrum is allocated. There is no harm in displaying such information and it will probably come in handy in the global market place.

It will be like this;

Tuner Information
--------------------------------
Service Name 1. TEN HD
Tuner Main
Frequency 690.5MHz
Bandwidth 7MHz
Modulation 64QAM
Mode 8K
Guard Interval 1/16
Code Rate 3/4
Lock Status Lock
Signal Strength 87%
Signal Quality 99%

What do the signal strength and quality measure? Are they some metrics derived from other readings, such as BER and SNR? Is the scale linear or logarithmic?

Sprigo · Post by **Sprigo** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 22:05

Is it possible that the WIN QLD aspect ratio error could be fixed in this firmware?
One would hope that if BW are adding tuner functionallity that they would fix the aspect ratio issue.

David

prl · Post by **prl** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 22:25

Hi, Springo.

I don't think the aspect ratio problem is in the tuners; I think it's further down the processing chain.

jackmarshall · Post by **jackmarshall** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 08:38

I hope this will be the ultimate solution?

I fixed all of my reception issues a few months ago very simply. I returned the BW and replaced it with media PC. Same antenna, same cables, but no problems. I installed the cheapest dual tuner card money could buy. I have alo tested the aerial with my old PC which has the cheapest single tuner card money could buy 18 months ago installed, no problems. Also I have tested it with a Strong brand digital set top box, no problems.

As I have noted elsewhere it is the only Set top box in the entire of the Good Guys store (Ballarat) which would not tune in to channel 10 reliably on their system. We tried two different BW's they had in stock and had them both sent back for repair. no luck.

Somewhere, there is a gremlin in the BW tuner system. Good luck, keep looking.

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:09

Hi Jackmarshall,

jackmarshall wrote:As I have noted elsewhere it is the only Set top box in the entire of the Good Guys store (Ballarat) which would not tune in to channel 10 reliably on their system. We tried two different BW's they had in stock and had them both sent back for repair. no luck.

When the next firmware release comes out I would love to hear how the reception is in your area. Perhaps you can drop back into that store and get them to try out the latest firmware.

Changes have been made to the firmware to more aggressively lock into the transmitted signal.

Regards,
Ian.

Mick · Post by **Mick** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 14:14

I live in Melbourne and I am also having tuner troubles with my P1.
- I am running the latest firmware.
- The P1 is connected via HDMI to a Sony X series LCD.
- The antenna is connected from the P1 to the TV
- The digital audio is connected from the P1 to my amp.

The reception on all channels is pretty much perfect except for channel 10 (SD and HD) which freezes and stutters and is not watchable. When I switch to using the digital tuner in the Sony the reception is perfect. The strange thing is after switching to the TV's tuner the digital audio from the P1 to the amp suddenly becomes perfect???
I hope the upcoming firmware will sort this out...

Gully · Post by **Gully** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 14:27

Mick

Can you try removing the antenna cable from the P1 to the TV and see what happens with the P1?

Chockstone · Post by **Chockstone** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 16:50

I've had an S1 ever since they were first released. My reception is excellent on all channels except ABC, ABC HD, ABC2 which will cough and splutter now and then. I'd say maybe once per half hour or so, the picture will break up and audio drops out for a few seconds.

Setting a recording on any ABC channel invariably results in a few things:
- Playing back the ABC recording may or may not be possible. Sometimes the file will not open at all, other times it opens but stops itself before finishing.
- Playing back a recording made simultaneously during the same period, but of any other, perfectly strong channel incurs random audio drops. Eg, no sound every few minutes for a few seconds. Rewinding and replaying the same section, reproduces the audio loss.
- Total crash (freeze) of the Beyonwiz requiring a shut down to standby and reboot either while playing back the poor ABC file or playing back any file while the ABC is being recorded.

I have worked around these issues by the simple step of avoiding the ABC like the plague, or instead watching it live from the TV's tuner (Sony X) which works fine.

Not sure if this information helps at all, but just thought I'd mention that I too am awaiting a Beyond Wiz firmware that is robust enough to at least not crash every time it encounters a less than optimal signal.

Details:
- S1 with December firmware.
- Aerial new, professionally installed & digital specific.
- Aerial cable runs into the BW and out of it into the TV (Sony X)
- HDMI from BW to TV
- Audio (white & red) cables run out of BW and into an old-ish AMP
- BW set to 2 channel stereo
- Location Bendigo, central Victoria

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 20:45

Hi Chockstone,

Have you tried unplugging the TV from the Beyonwiz antenna output? (As Gully suggested to Mick.)

Do you get ABC on VHF12?

Regards,
Ian.

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 07:26

IanSav wrote:When the next firmware release comes out I would love to hear how the reception is in your area. Perhaps you can drop back into that store and get them to try out the latest firmware.

Changes have been made to the firmware to more aggressively lock into the transmitted signal.

Regards,
Ian.

I'll certainly be able to give a comment on any gains that have been made in this area.
I have one ch (7) that is really ratty constantly.

I have had 4 different devices on the same airial, and the BW loses the contest hands down at the moment.

Mick · Post by **Mick** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 13:57

Gully wrote:Mick

Can you try removing the antenna cable from the P1 to the TV and see what happens with the P1?

I tried unplugging the antenna cable as suggested but it didn't have any effect - still bad reception for channel 10

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 14:27

peteru wrote: Tuner Information
--------------------------------
Service Name 1. TEN HD
Tuner Main
Frequency 690.5MHz
Bandwidth 7MHz
Modulation 64QAM
Mode 8K
Guard Interval 1/16
Code Rate 3/4
Lock Status Lock
Signal Strength 87%
Signal Quality 99%

Just wondering, the sig strength and quality, I assume that this is a snapshot and will require refresh to get a realtime picture of what is happening?
Can any of the beta testers advise?

prl · Post by **prl** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 14:37

grampus wrote:
peteru wrote: Tuner Information
--------------------------------
Service Name 1. TEN HD
Tuner Main
Frequency 690.5MHz
Bandwidth 7MHz
Modulation 64QAM
Mode 8K
Guard Interval 1/16
Code Rate 3/4
Lock Status Lock
Signal Strength 87%
Signal Quality 99%
Just wondering, the sig strength and quality, I assume that this is a snapshot and will require refresh to get a realtime picture of what is happening?
Can any of the beta testers advise?

No, it refreshes itself, about once a second, from memory.

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 20:27

prl wrote:
grampus wrote:
peteru wrote: Tuner Information
--------------------------------
Service Name 1. TEN HD
Tuner Main
Frequency 690.5MHz
Bandwidth 7MHz
Modulation 64QAM
Mode 8K
Guard Interval 1/16
Code Rate 3/4
Lock Status Lock
Signal Strength 87%
Signal Quality 99%
Just wondering, the sig strength and quality, I assume that this is a snapshot and will require refresh to get a realtime picture of what is happening?
Can any of the beta testers advise?
No, it refreshes itself, about once a second, from memory.

Nice one

JKramer · Post by **JKramer** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:45

1 May firmware.
Reception randomly disappears.
When "No Signal" happens, the following is displayed in Tuner Information:

Service Name 90 NINE HD
Tuner Main
Frequency 191.625MHz
Bandwidth
Modulation
Mode
Guard Interval
Code Rate
Lock Status Unlock
Signal Strength 99%
Signal Quality 0%

To get signal back I have to SWITCH TO OTHER CHANNEL AND BACK.
Which means signal is there but DP-S1 can't receive it properly.

And other TV and devices work fine with same antenna.
So this is definitely NOT AN ANTENNA INSTALLATION ISSUE.

This has been happening with all other firmware releases.
I hope someone from development team will read my report.

Vortical · Post by **Vortical** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:55

I must say that I find it odd that an antenna that feeds through a 7000 which has 72%average Signal Level and 99% Quality that then feeds into a Beyonwiz and ends up ith 98%average Signal Level and 99% Quality that something just doesn't add up.

prl · Post by **prl** » Fri May 09, 2008 13:18

Vortical wrote:I must say that I find it odd that an antenna that feeds through a 7000 which has 72%average Signal Level and 99% Quality that then feeds into a Beyonwiz and ends up ith 98%average Signal Level and 99% Quality that something just doesn't add up.

From discussions with the BW folk in the [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue topic (here, and following), it appears that the Signal Strength indicator is derived from the (digital?) Automatic Gain Control (AGC) circuit. This is essentially an amplifier stage whose gain can be controlled so that it has more-or-less constant output levels when the input levels change. The control value into the AGC circuit implies a signal strength on its inputs; if you have to turn its "volume control" down a long way, the the incoming signal must be strong. Unfortunately, this doesn't readily convert into RMS volts or watts over the band (or V/Hz or W/Hz) at the antenna input. It wasn't even clear whether the percentage was a linear measure of the gain or a logarithmic one (like dB). It's not all that surprising that it's not comparable with the Topfield indicator.

The signal quality indicator on the BW is tied to the Bit Error Rate or Bit Error Ratio. From the numbers in Andrew's post

Andrew wrote:We generate the Signal Quality value in % from the BER.
We change the BER of 0~30,000 to 0~99.

it appears that it's the Bit Error Rate (error bits/sec?) not the Bit Error Ratio (number of error bits/broadcast bits), which must be between 0 and 1.
In that interpretation 0 BER = 99%, 30000 BER=0%, though I would have thought that it would get unwatchable a long way before 30000 uncorrected errors/sec (at 20Mb/s, that's an error rate of 1 error for every 670 bits). I don't know what the Topfield signal quality indicates.

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Fri May 09, 2008 19:46

The new f/w may have resolved a tuner problem in that it locks on quicker.
But, as far as I can see I still have a problem with a channel (7) in melb specifically that presents a picture and sound that is completely unwatchable.

The other 3 devices that I have had on the same aerial were of a quality that i could have used to record. Albeit there may have been a few glitches, maybe 1 in 10 minutes, its hard to quantify. The BW presents a picture that is constantly glitching, in the order of one every few seconds.

Tuner info shows that sig strength is 99%, and quality is jumping between 78% - 90%.

I know, I know,
What it shows me is just verification that the sig that the BW is resolving isn't quite up to snuff.
Still doesn't get away from the fact that there are other devices which handle this same sig much better.

Mork · Post by **Mork** » Sun May 11, 2008 10:45

grampus wrote:The new f/w may have resolved a tuner problem in that it locks on quicker.
But, as far as I can see I still have a problem with a channel (7) in melb specifically that presents a picture and sound that is completely unwatchable.

The other 3 devices that I have had on the same aerial were of a quality that i could have used to record. Albeit there may have been a few glitches, maybe 1 in 10 minutes, its hard to quantify. The BW presents a picture that is constantly glitching, in the order of one every few seconds.

Tuner info shows that sig strength is 99%, and quality is jumping between 78% - 90%.

I know, I know,
What it shows me is just verification that the sig that the BW is resolving isn't quite up to snuff.
Still doesn't get away from the fact that there are other devices which handle this same sig much better.

I had similar problems with Chan 2. Five (5) other Digitial devices (Sony Bravia Tuner, OKANO SD STB, DVB2Go USB, DIGITEC HD-STB, Fusion HDTV Card), could pull in the same signal from the same antenna on the same wall socket with no problems, but the Wiz just could not handle it, with the signal quality indicator up and down like a yo-yo. As I had an older analogue antenna that was not tuned to the new Chan 2 Digital freq, it seemed that the Wiz was sensitive to a lower signal to noise ratio. Replacing the antenna with a new "Digital" Antenna worked a treat, albeit at the expense of the Analogue Ch2 reqception. (Only the kids watch that).

IMHO, the Wiz is definitly more sensitive to noise and low signal that all other Digital tuners I have tried, however with a good antenna and quality cable (Eg RG6) this can be overcome.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun May 11, 2008 11:00

Mork wrote:...
As I had an older analogue antenna that was not tuned to the new Chan 2 Digital freq, it seemed that the Wiz was sensitive to a lower signal to noise ratio. Replacing the antenna with a new "Digital" Antenna worked a treat, albeit at the expense of the Analogue Ch2 reqception. (Only the kids watch that).
...

An alternative is to use something like the Kingray FL3BPMH triplexer. It would let you use a wideband VHF (chand 0-12) + UHF antenna, while filtering out the out-of-band stuff, and has an switchable adjustable FM stop filter as well. A bit pricey, though (the best price I could find was about $65), and because it's a passive device, it's only good if you have enough signal strength in the first place.

All "digital" antennas are are TV antennas with low gain below chan 5A. That makes them less sensitive to FM and other low-band interference. All digital broadcasts in Australia are on chan 5a and above (VHF Band 3). There's actually nothing at all digital about a "digital" antenna.

Mork · Post by **Mork** » Sun May 11, 2008 22:19

prl wrote: An alternative is to use something like the Kingray FL3BPMH triplexer. It would let you use a wideband VHF (chand 0-12) + UHF antenna, while filtering out the out-of-band stuff, and has an switchable adjustable FM stop filter as well. A bit pricey, though (the best price I could find was about $65), and because it's a passive device, it's only good if you have enough signal strength in the first place.

All "digital" antennas are are TV antennas with low gain below chan 5A. That makes them less sensitive to FM and other low-band interference. All digital broadcasts in Australia are on chan 5a and above (VHF Band 3). There's actually nothing at all digital about a "digital" antenna.

PRL - I Know all that, and considered modifying my old "analoge station tuned" antenna (Having built a few Yagi's in the past, it not too diffifult to re-tune one with a pair of side cutters and moving a few elements), but purchasing a "digital station tuned" antenna was simpler. I don't care too much any more about analogue reception, and the kids dont mind the snowy picture.

prl · Post by **prl** » Sun May 11, 2008 22:35

Mork wrote:...
PRL - I Know all that, and considered modifying my old "analoge station tuned" antenna (Having built a few Yagi's in the past, it not too diffifult to re-tune one with a pair of side cutters and moving a few elements), but purchasing a "digital station tuned" antenna was simpler. I don't care too much any more about analogue reception, and the kids dont mind the snowy picture.

Sorry, I wasn't too sure where you were with antennas. I thought it a useful extra for others, too. I kept my wide-band VHF antenna and used the triplexer specifically so I can feed our FM receiver. I like the idea of "tuning with wirecutters

I'm not sure about your old wide-band VHF, but the one I have is a hybrid Yagi/log-periodic (3 log-periodic active elements with a single reflector).

Half Round · Post by **Half Round** » Sun May 11, 2008 22:50

Mork wrote:
grampus wrote:The new f/w may have resolved a tuner problem in that it locks on quicker.
But, as far as I can see I still have a problem with a channel (7) in melb specifically that presents a picture and sound that is completely unwatchable.

The other 3 devices that I have had on the same aerial were of a quality that i could have used to record. Albeit there may have been a few glitches, maybe 1 in 10 minutes, its hard to quantify. The BW presents a picture that is constantly glitching, in the order of one every few seconds.

Tuner info shows that sig strength is 99%, and quality is jumping between 78% - 90%.

I know, I know,
What it shows me is just verification that the sig that the BW is resolving isn't quite up to snuff.
Still doesn't get away from the fact that there are other devices which handle this same sig much better.
I had similar problems with Chan 2. Five (5) other Digitial devices (Sony Bravia Tuner, OKANO SD STB, DVB2Go USB, DIGITEC HD-STB, Fusion HDTV Card), could pull in the same signal from the same antenna on the same wall socket with no problems, but the Wiz just could not handle it, with the signal quality indicator up and down like a yo-yo. As I had an older analogue antenna that was not tuned to the new Chan 2 Digital freq, it seemed that the Wiz was sensitive to a lower signal to noise ratio. Replacing the antenna with a new "Digital" Antenna worked a treat, albeit at the expense of the Analogue Ch2 reqception. (Only the kids watch that).

IMHO, the Wiz is definitly more sensitive to noise and low signal that all other Digital tuners I have tried, however with a good antenna and quality cable (Eg RG6) this can be overcome.

I agree.
I live in a unit. All TV comes from a UHF only antenna then through a distribution amp to 5 units. While I have not actually measured signals, when watching a Toppy (which has no problems!) tuning through the band there is a lot of intermod crud indicated as a residual signal level when off the actual channels. Back to the BW, on the ABC (the only channel that gives trouble) a cheap flylead will give a varying signal indicator and picture breakups. ( on the new f/w signal is a steady 93%) A quad shield flylead is fine.
However.... Previously I had connect an indoor antenna to the BW the signal is just enough to get over the digital cliff (on the ABC). The colour bar indicator was just into the green. Indicator stayed constant with virtually no breakups.
This to me indicates that tuner or IF is not selective enough and lets in too much off frequency crud to the processing circuits.
Tony

grampus · Post by **grampus** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 08:42

An observation.
I live in a fringe area for Melb city transmissions.
I have one channel that is abysmal (7), I'll leave this out of the discussion.

I have another channel that is spurious. (9)

I noticed that with 9, I can have 2 differing results after changing channels.

At one instance I will have 99% strength, and 98% quality, solid as a rock, and the presentation is perfect.
I can then change to another channel, and then back to 9 again, and the strength is 99%, and the quality is at 98%. But then one or the other will start to wander. The strength will go from 99% to 97% and back, and the presentation will reflect this with a corrupted picture.
Then change back to another channel and back to 9 again, and find that the presentation is once again perfect, and the signal indicators are steady again.
It seemed to me that the compensation applied by the AGC, may have been overcompensation, and has swung backwards and forwards trying to settle it. Never achieving it, until I have got off the channel, and come back again.

For what its worth, this is just a thought, and an observation only.

taway · Post by **taway** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 00:49

The reception on my DP-S1 has been perfect since I bought it. Tonight, CH10 just stopped working, completely.

I've upgraded firmware, downgraded firmware (all the way back to 215). I've done a full re-scan, I've done a partial re-scan. All do not yield the return of CH10.

I get a 'no signal' pop-up on CH10 only.

When the exact same cable is plugged into the HD tuner of my Sharp TV, CH 10 works perfectly fine.

Therefore, the problem is the tuner of the BeyonWiz.

I'm really getting sick of how flaky various aspects of this unit is.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this reception issue?

smeg888 · Post by **smeg888** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 13:43

taway wrote:The reception on my DP-S1 has been perfect since I bought it. Tonight, CH10 just stopped working, completely.

I've upgraded firmware, downgraded firmware (all the way back to 215). I've done a full re-scan, I've done a partial re-scan. All do not yield the return of CH10.

I get a 'no signal' pop-up on CH10 only.

When the exact same cable is plugged into the HD tuner of my Sharp TV, CH 10 works perfectly fine.

Therefore, the problem is the tuner of the BeyonWiz.

I'm really getting sick of how flaky various aspects of this unit is.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this reception issue?

What does the BW say the signal strength and quality are?? (from the tuner info on the popup menu.

taway · Post by **taway** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 15:56

smeg888 wrote: What does the BW say the signal strength and quality are?? (from the tuner info on the popup menu.

It says 98% signal strength, 0% quality.

If this thing doesn't start working by the end of the weekend, it's going back to the store under warranty and I want my money back.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 16:02

Is it the correct RF channel number for your area for digital? So your broadcaster is definitely broadcasting digital on the channel that is indicated in the pop-up in your area right now (and is not having technical difficulties)?
Have you tried deleting your Ten digital channels and rescan the correct VHF (or UHF) channel number that Ten is on, or simply do a full rescan again? (I suggest deleting, as if you have two TenSD=LCN10 channels for example, you may not notice this, and you may be choosing one with very poor reception or not properly switched on by your broadcaster when you simply punch "10" into your remote, or channel surf up/down).
I actually don't recommend doing a full rescan as you may end up with the same prob of having 2 LCN10s.. try and work out what frequency/RF channel number your TV that has perfect reception is tuned to, and use this info for restricting your scan on the Wiz.
Pressing list will show what the details are of the channels also, and let you delete I believe.
Regards

taway · Post by **taway** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 16:09

tonymy01 wrote:Is it the correct RF channel number for your area for digital? So your broadcaster is definitely broadcasting digital on the channel that is indicated in the pop-up in your area right now (and is not having technical difficulties)?
Have you tried deleting your Ten digital channels and rescan the correct VHF (or UHF) channel number that Ten is on, or simply do a full rescan again? (I suggest deleting, as if you have two TenSD=LCN10 channels for example, you may not notice this, and you may be choosing one with very poor reception or not properly switched on by your broadcaster when you simply punch "10" into your remote, or channel surf up/down).
Pressing list will show what the details are of the channels also, and let you delete I believe.
Regards

I've done a full rescan, I've done a partial rescan. I can change channel into ten and it simply gives me a black screen. At the very first point, it gave me some MPEG artifacts and garbled sound but that's now gone.

I've done a full factory re-set (from the system menu) which upon reboot required a full re-scan. Again, all I get is a black screen for CH10 both HD and SD.

I've also removed ten because at one point when I was doing re-scans, it simply disappeared from the channel list as it was not detected in the scan.

As I mentioned, I plug the same RF cable into the HD tuner on the TV connected to the Beyonwiz and CH10 is detected in crystal clear brilliance.

I've done multiple firmware upgrades, multiple re-scans, removal of channels, etc.

How could I limit the frequencies the DP-S1 does the rescan on? I can only see limiting by channels in the partial rescan, not by Hz.

The HD tuner in the DP-S1 has gone flaky. Why it would fail for one frequency only and not others is anyone's guess.

prl · Post by **prl** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 16:16

taway wrote:
smeg888 wrote: What does the BW say the signal strength and quality are?? (from the tuner info on the popup menu.
It says 98% signal strength, 0% quality.

If this thing doesn't start working by the end of the weekend, it's going back to the store under warranty and I want my money back.

98% signal strength, 0% quality sounds like either a tuner fault or really bad interference. The good reception on the TV probably eliminates interference.

Is it possible that the association of the problem and the firmware change is coincidental, especially as reverting to an earlier firmware that worked didn't solve the problem?

Do you know what transmitter you're receiving from? is there something particular about CH10 where you are? VHF vs UHF, for instance?

IanSav · Post by **IanSav** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 16:17

Hi Taway,

This issue reminds me of the person who had transient issues because a rocking chair was sitting on the antenna cable. Can you please chech all the cables are properly connected and undamaged. Check all connections for a good, clean, tight connection. Have there been any other changes recently that happened about the time that these issues started? Have you looked at the roof antenna to ensure that it is still standing and pointing in the correct direction? Is anything connected to the antenna out connector on the Beyonwiz?

It is also possible that your unit has had some sort of failure. If checking cables and connectors etc doesn't help then please contact Beyonwiz Australia for advice.

Regards,
Ian.

tonymy01 · Post by **tonymy01** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 17:04

taway wrote: I've done a full rescan, I've done a partial rescan. I can change channel into ten and it simply gives me a black screen. At the very first point, it gave me some MPEG artifacts and garbled sound but that's now gone.

As per my last message, a full scan is bad as you may get Ten from two places and the default channel when you surf or punch in the numbers 1 or 10 may be from the poorer of the received Tens.

I've also removed ten because at one point when I was doing re-scans, it simply disappeared from the channel list as it was not detected in the scan.

I guess this bit may not back up my theory, you seem to get no Tens sometimes...

How could I limit the frequencies the DP-S1 does the rescan on? I can only see limiting by channels in the partial rescan, not by Hz.

They are RF channel numbers, which are set to a standard governed frequency (give or take 125kHz or whatever the offset is allowed to be). So if you can determine what RF channel number or frequency your TV is on, you can be selective with your scanning on the Wiz also.
Regards

peteru · Post by **peteru** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 15:13

98% signal strength, 0% quality

You might see figures such as these when you are trying to tune into an analogue channel, rather than a digital channel.

[Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

[Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Re: [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Re: [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Re: [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Re: [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Tuner improvements with next firmware

Re: [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Re: [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

Re: [Official Comment] Tuner Reception Issue

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