New router recommendations

[prl]

My 13-year-old Fritz!Box 7390 died yesterday. I'm online with my ISP-supplied Huawei HG658, and while it synchs a bit faster than the 7390 (~74Mb/s vs ~71Mb/s), it's missing a number of features that the 7390 has, most notably local DNS and the ability to tie specific DHCP address bindings.

I'm looking for recommendations for a replacement. My requirements/preferences are:
Local DNS for local naming (and perhaps DNS caching)
Ability to fix MAC address->IP address mappings
802.11ac capability
Full gigabit routing between Ethernet ports
VDSL vectoring capability
VOIP with at least two phone lines
Broadcomm VDSL chipset preferred
Can act as NTP server preferred
Can connect to nbn FTTP preferred, though by the time I get that I may need a new modem anyway
DECT capability would be nice (though the Fritz!Box DECT didn't play particularly nicely with our old Panasonic phones, so I went back to the phone's' base station)

Most devices on the network are on Ethernet, rather than on WiFi.
A single WiFi Access Point is enough. No need for mesh WiFi or repeaters.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

A messy 3 box setup is to -

• bridge your Huawei HG658 to a
• decent router (e.g. ASUS RT-AC86U),
• adding either
  • an ATA (e.g. Grandstream HT812), or
  • an IP phone

Cleaner to just buy a F!B 7590
https://staticice.com.au/cgi-bin/search ... 590&spos=6
https://www.skycomp.com.au/avm-fritzbox ... 63915.html

[Grumpy_Geoff]

VOIP with at least two phone lines

Do you have two DIDs?

[Grumpy_Geoff]

Very few VoIP modem/routers on the market now.
I don't know how the TP-Link VR600v stacks up to all of your requirements - https://www.tp-link.com/au/home-network ... er-vr600v/
Perhaps read the manual and also try the emulator - https://www.tp-link.com/au/support/down ... er-vr600v/

[peteru]

With that particular requirement list, your options may be limited to another Fritzbox if you expect a single device to handle the whole lot.

If you are willing to pass on the DECT and VoIP features in the router, I'd suggest looking at Asus hardware offerings and picking a device that is supported by OpenWRT. I'm using a Linksys SPA-3102 ATA for VoIP, which works great, but may be overkill for you.

[prl]

VOIP with at least two phone lines

Do you have two DIDs?

From what Wikipedia says, no. I have a DECT base station and a very occasionally used fax functionality in my printer. Having two lines means I can fax without replugging stuff. I don't expect to be able to phone and fax at the same time.

[prl]

And thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

[prl]

I'm using a Linksys SPA-3102 ATA for VoIP, which works great, but may be overkill for you.

That now seems to be branded Cisco, and its page there says that it's gone EOL. It's also showing as unavailable on mwave.com.au.

[prl]

A messy 3 box setup is to -

• bridge your Huawei HG658 to a
• decent router (e.g. ASUS RT-AC86U),
• adding either
  • an ATA (e.g. Grandstream HT812), or
  • an IP phone

Too much string and chewing gum

[Grumpy_Geoff]

If you are willing to pass on the DECT and VoIP features in the router, I'd suggest looking at Asus hardware offerings and picking a device that is supported by OpenWRT.

Not with ASUS, as they have bugger all modem/routers now -
DSL-AC55U
DSL-AC88U (a piece of crap, very much best avoided)
DSL-AC68U (an oldie but still updated, Mediatek chipset)
They've a DSL-AX82U in the wings, but when?

I'm using a Linksys SPA-3102 ATA for VoIP, which works great, but may be overkill for you.

Yeah, I'm using its successor the Cisco SPA112.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

I'm using a Linksys SPA-3102 ATA for VoIP, which works great, but may be overkill for you.

That now seems to be branded Cisco, and its page there says that it's gone EOL. It's also showing as unavailable on mwave.com.au.

Yeah, replaced by the ATA 191 - https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/ ... index.html
The Grandstream HT802 is cheaper.

[prl]

I don't know how the TP-Link VR600v stacks up to all of your requirements

It looks like everything is covered apart from local NTP server and (maybe) local DNS. I can live without the NTP server: I'd just not have to change my NTP settings to point back to the router. I couldn't see anything in the manual about that (but I don't think that the Fritz!Box manual says anything about i either).

[MrQuade]

Too much string and chewing gum

The problem is that the all-in-ones are just not that good any more.
They have all the big ticket features, but all the nice tweaky fiddly stuff is dumbed right down, and the underlying hardware consists of specialist SOCs that aren't as powerful as the ones in the latest routers.

I came to the hard realisation when I had to retire my dear old Billion modem/router for a multi-device solution.

Though my own setup omits the VOIP entirely. Haven't missed a landline for a second.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

Too much string and chewing gum

I gave you the "cleaner" option too
At least if you buy a F!B 7590 you'll not be on any learning curve. You can also be guaranteed of updates, unlike a TP-Link which generally gets abandoned after one or two updates.

[Gully]

May not be the solution for you but I use the Orbi router and Gigaset VOIP handset and base.

[prl]

Too much string and chewing gum

I gave you the "cleaner" option too

Yes, and it looks like a good possibility.

At least if you buy a F!B 7590 you'll not be on any learning curve. You can also be guaranteed of updates, unlike a TP-Link which generally gets abandoned after one or two updates.

Yes, I even had a F/W upgrade for the 13yo 7390 earlier this month, though the upgrades are now infrequent.

The downside of the 7590 is price: a fairly hefty ~$350 (the 7390 cost ~$280). But it may not be much more than a bunch of boxes that do the same thing.

[prl]

The problem is that the all-in-ones are just not that good any more.

The only grumbles I have with the F!B 7390 is that its VDSL2 sync speed isn't as good as my Huawei, and that its SMB server speed is almost glacial.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

The problem is that the all-in-ones are just not that good any more.

The only grumbles I have with the F!B 7390 is that its VDSL2 sync speed isn't as good as my Huawei, and that its SMB server speed is almost glacial.

If you find that the 7590's sync is too low compared to the HG658, then bridge the HG658 to the 7590.
The HG658 uses a Broadcom BCM63168 chipset - so usually very good line sync.
Then just pretend you haven't got a 2-box solution.

[prl]

Then just pretend you haven't got a 2-box solution.

The networking gear all sits on a small table in the corner of the dining room where the phone and DSL connections are, and where the Ethernet distribution is.

It would be a hard pretense to maintain

But it is why I asked about modems that use Broadcom chipsets.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

But it is why I asked about modems that use Broadcom chipsets.

As previously stated, bugger all choice for VoIP all-in-ones

Is your line marginal for your iiNet plan?
I had a quick gander at the iiNet's Ultra Broadband plans - it looks like just two tiers of "Basic" with 22Mbps TES (typical evening speed) and "Max" with 65Mbps TES.
edit - Oh, old data from Whistleout. There's only the Ultra Broadband Max now, with 74Mbps TES.

Here there' a note that the 7590 got better DSL drivers with its firmware updates.
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9mj7pq83#r15
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9mj7pq83?p=2#r27
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/ ... #r68203635

C'mon, get the 7590
... and you can set the WAN port to be a fifth LAN port.

[prl]

Is your line marginal for your iiNet plan?

It used to be. I used to get about 45Mb/s, but it seems I recently got moved onto a mini DSLAM closer to my house and now I sync at about 70Mb/s on the F!B and about 74Mb/s on the Huawei. The 74Mb/s is quite close to the plan nominal max sync of 80Mb/s (though some users report getting a touch over 100Mb/s).

C'mon, get the 7590

That's the direction I'm leaning.

Interesting about the report of better DSL sync speeds for the recent 7590 upgrade. I'll have to find the release notes to see just what they say.

ETA: The most recent version's release notes (7.21) say:
NEW Support for VDSL Long Reach

No idea what that is, and neither Wikipedia nor Google help much. It might be Cisco Long Range Ethernet.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

Interesting about the report of better DSL sync speeds for the recent 7590 upgrade. I'll have to find the release notes to see just what they say.

ETA: The most recent version's release notes (7.21) say:
NEW Support for VDSL Long Reach

No idea what that is, and neither Wikipedia nor Google help much. It might be Cisco Long Range Ethernet.

Not Cisco apparently -
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/ ... #r66701165
"With VDSL Long reach, where vectoring is applied from 550 KHz or 1100 KHz onwards, it is possible to supply vectoring on a longer distance.".
I've no idea what that may do, if anything, to the ex-TransACT FTTN network.

The DSL updates were in firmwares - 07.19-74232, 07.19-74611, and 07.24-84159 according to the Whirlpool beta thread.

[prl]

I don't think that the iiNet/Transact network uses vectoring.

[prl]

The DSL updates were in firmwares - 07.19-74232, 07.19-74611, and 07.24-84159 according to the Whirlpool beta thread.

7.19 and 7.24 seem to be betas. I presume that any speedup that was in 7.19 beta appeared in 7.20, where the release notes say "Improved Interoperability for supervectoring 35b".

7.24 (18/12021) (https://avm.de/fritz-labor/frisch-aus-d ... ntwicklung - meaning "fresh from development") mentions:
Verbesserung - Supervectoring 35B an manchen Gegenstellen verbessert (nur 7590)
Verbesserung - Stabilität und Interoperabilität verbessert
Verbesserung - Long-Reach-VDSL-Interoperabilität verbessert (nur 7530, 7590 und 6890)

Improvements - Supervectoring 35B improved for remote devices (7590 only)
Stability and interoperability improved
Long Reach VDSL interoperability improved (7530, 7590 and 6890 only)

[gibster]

I'd get the 7590. My Fritz!box experience is like yours. They seem to last forever.

Gib

[stevebow]

My 7390 is still chuffing along. I switched over to VDSL2 about a month ago, and while the 7390 was perfectly fine on ADSL2+, on VDSL2 it would lose DSL sync around once or twice a day. A little research, and apparently the 7390s are very sensitive to heat. Some have mounted it vertically and it's fine, some have modded it with a fan.

The gen 1s did not have as many ventilation slots and were much more susceptible to heat. I have a gen 2, which has ventilation slots right across the top cover, around the DECT and WLAN buttons, whereas the gen 1s only had slots on the right half, above the Fritz!Box logo.

What is the issue with your 7390 exactly? I presume you've checked to obvious, the power pack. Are there any obvious signs of troubles internally e.g. electrolytic caps? Do the internal heatsinks get warm or hot still?

If you want to buy a new FB, Internode sells the 7490s for $249 + $10 shipping incl. 5 yr warranty, if you don't mind the Latest and Greatest:

https://www.internode.on.net/residentia ... /fritzbox/

Unlike the 7390 (unfortunately), it is still supported by AVM, with Fritz!OS 7.21 the latest for it (like the 7590).

Or purchase the 7590 itself for a little more $$$, as others have pointed out.

[stevebow]

I don't think that the iiNet/Transact network uses vectoring.

What is the FB reporting for the coneection to the DSLAM? If it shows G.993.5 it wil be vectored:

7390 Vectored Connection.png (30 KiB) Viewed 4382 times

Note, I am on a 25Mbs plan with my ISP.

[stevebow]

ETA: The most recent version's release notes (7.21) say:
NEW Support for VDSL Long Reach

No idea what that is, and neither Wikipedia nor Google help much. It might be Cisco Long Range Ethernet.

The ITU G.993.5 standards document available here:

https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-G.993.5-201902-I

Goes in to some detail on VDSL2-LR in Annex B. I don't know when (or if?) NBN will support this, as it is an "optional functionality for both the VTU-O and VTU-R" and "During the ITU-T G.994.1 Handshake phase, it is determined whether the line is selected to be a VDSL2-LR line or selected to be a regular ITU-T G.993.5 line."

[prl]

What is the FB reporting for the coneection to the DSLAM? If it shows G.993.5 it wil be vectored:

It's not reporting anything. It's as dead as a Norwegian Blue. I don't have any screenshots of the DSL Information screen. The Huawei doesn't report anything about the VDSL profile that it's using.

[prl]

My 7390 is still chuffing along. I switched over to VDSL2 about a month ago, and while the 7390 was perfectly fine on ADSL2+, on VDSL2 it would lose DSL sync around once or twice a day. A little research, and apparently the 7390s are very sensitive to heat. Some have mounted it vertically and it's fine, some have modded it with a fan.

I had no problems with it resynching too often. It would typically run for tens of days without interruption.

The gen 1s did not have as many ventilation slots and were much more susceptible to heat. I have a gen 2, which has ventilation slots right across the top cover, around the DECT and WLAN buttons, whereas the gen 1s only had slots on the right half, above the Fritz!Box logo.

It looks like I have the Gen2.

What is the issue with your 7390 exactly?

It suddenly stopped working. All the front panel lights were off. The same when I power cycled it.

I presume you've checked to obvious, the power pack.

I checked the no-load voltage of the power pack, and it was OK. I tried with a different power pack with the same specs. That didn't help.

I thought I'd posted that yesterday, but I can't find it.

Are there any obvious signs of troubles internally e.g. electrolytic caps? Do the internal heatsinks get warm or hot still?

I hadn't looked inside (!two screws hidden under the front feet!), but now I have. No bulging or visibly blown caps, no cartridge fuse that might have blown. No visible scorch marks. The heat sinks all stay cold when it's powered up.

If you want to buy a new FB, Internode sells the 7490s for $249 + $10 shipping incl. 5 yr warranty, if you don't mind the Latest and Greatest:

Unlike the 7390 (unfortunately), it is still supported by AVM, with Fritz!OS 7.21 the latest for it (like the 7590).

Or purchase the 7590 itself for a little more $$$, as others have pointed out.

The 7490 is certainly a possibility. Unfortunately, it's not a current model, so the AVM Web pages don't have a comparison matrix that includes the 7490 and 7590.

[prl]

Goes in to some detail on VDSL2-LR in Annex B. I don't know when (or if?) NBN will support this, as it is an "optional functionality for both the VTU-O and VTU-R" and "During the ITU-T G.994.1 Handshake phase, it is determined whether the line is selected to be a VDSL2-LR line or selected to be a regular ITU-T G.993.5 line."

I'm not currently on nbn, I'm on iiNet/Transact VDSL2 (officially "Ultra Broadband - VDSL2"). I seem to have recently been moved from a port on a supernode DSLAM to a port on a miniDSLAM on a closer node (probably in the farther of the two nodes between me and the supernode).

I now get ~74Mb/s downstream sync on the Huawei, and I was getting about 71Mb/s on the 7390. These are close to the top end of the predicted sync speeds I'd get on nbn, and my grandfathered "Ultra" plan is about $30/month cheaper than a 100Mb/s nbn plan from iiNet, so I'm not likely to change in the short term. However, I'd still like a modem than can take full advantage of nbn VDSL2 profiles in case I do change.

[Paul_oz53]

A total Hail Mary of course but the problem may be a failed voltage regulator on the motherboard.

Probably totally uneconomic to investigate, let alone repair. But desperate times call for desperate measures!

If you have the time and inclination you might just identify a dodgy regulator but finding someone to replace it may sink that option.

If you want to minimise the unknowns the Internode deal looks attractive. Otherwise, I suspect you won't be happy with anything less than the 7590.

[prl]

A total Hail Mary of course but the problem may be a failed voltage regulator on the motherboard.

Probably totally uneconomic to investigate, let alone repair. But desperate times call for desperate measures!

If you have the time and inclination you might just identify a dodgy regulator but finding someone to replace it may sink that option.

That seems a fairly likely possibility, but I don't have the necessary equipment or skills (or, TBH, much motivation) to do the job. I have a working, albeit slightly inconvenient, stopgap.

If you want to minimise the unknowns the Internode deal looks attractive. Otherwise, I suspect you won't be happy with anything less than the 7590.

I'll probably shell out for the 7590, and try to maximise the time to EOL (though the 7590 warranty is only 2 years ).


ETA: The SkyComp link for the 7590 says 2 years warranty, but the CPL one says 5 years. The AVM Web page for the 7590 says 5 years.

[stevebow]

I hadn't looked inside (!two screws hidden under the front feet!), but now I have. No bulging or visibly blown caps, no cartridge fuse that might have blown. No visible scorch marks. The heat sinks all stay cold when it's powered up.

Bugger. Sounds like it might be power missing somewhere then. Possibly an internal SMD fuse or regulator. The real bugger is (as you would have seen) the 7390 PCBs have no silk-screen printing identifying components at all, making identifying most components very difficult. Thanks AVM. Not really worthwhile troubleshooting further - even if you have the skills and inclination it would be a considerable challenge.

[prl]

I hadn't looked inside (!two screws hidden under the front feet!), but now I have. No bulging or visibly blown caps, no cartridge fuse that might have blown. No visible scorch marks. The heat sinks all stay cold when it's powered up.

Bugger. Sounds like it might be power missing somewhere then. Possibly an internal SMD fuse or regulator.

Yes, quite likely.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

The AVM Web page for the 7590 says 5 years.

My understanding is that you need to send it back to Germany for that coverage.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

I now get ~74Mb/s downstream sync on the Huawei, and I was getting about 71Mb/s on the 7390. These are close to the top end of the predicted sync speeds I'd get on nbn, and my grandfathered "Ultra" plan is about $30/month cheaper than a 100Mb/s nbn plan from iiNet, so I'm not likely to change in the short term. However, I'd still like a modem than can take full advantage of nbn VDSL2 profiles in case I do change.

The 7390 uses an Ikanos chipset, the 7490 uses a Lantiq VRX288 chipset, and the 7590 also uses Lantiq - a VRX518 DSL chipset.
A Whirlpool post from one user states the 7590 syncs higher than the 7490 which syncs higher than the 7390 - all on the same line.

[prl]

The 7390 uses an Ikanos chipset, the 7490 uses a Lantiq VRX288 chipset, and the 7590 also uses Lantiq - a VRX518 DSL chipset.
A Whirlpool post from one user states the 7590 syncs higher than the 7490 which syncs higher than the 7390 - all on the same line.

Thanks. The speeds sound good, because my 7390 only syncs about 5% slower than the Huawei.

[prl]

The AVM Web page for the 7590 says 5 years.

My understanding is that you need to send it back to Germany for that coverage.

[peteru]

The AVM Web page for the 7590 says 5 years.

My understanding is that you need to send it back to Germany for that coverage.

In case you need to exercise the warranty, all you need to do is return the product to place of purchase. The ACL prevents the retailer from fobbing you off to the manufacturer. If they (retailer) sold the product to you with a promise that the product will be good for at least 5 years, then they (retailer) have to honour that promise and rectify any faults at their expense. The usual ACL rules will apply. Of course, this is contingent on the retailer still being in business if/when you need to deal with a failure.

Getting back to the choice of router... Your specification list pretty much marries you to another Fritzbox - especially if you want an all-in-one solution. That makes the decision process fairly simple. Buy the most current model. Most manufacturers have a bad habit of not releasing firmware updates for older products, even if there are serious security issues. Since it does not sound like you'd be interested in assembling an array of open source based networking devices and managing their firmware, you'll probably want to select a device that is likely to receive firmware updates for as long as possible, which usually means the most recently released model.

[prl]

I've pretty much decided on the 7590, for the reasons you suggest, though AVM is pretty good at updating old gear: I got a firmware upgrade for the 7390 earlier this month, which is way beyond what some larger organisations would do.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

ETA: The SkyComp link for the 7590 says 2 years warranty, but the CPL one says 5 years. The AVM Web page for the 7590 says 5 years.

2yr local warranty according to the distributors - http://firstint.com.au/avm7590-technicaldata/

[prl]

ETA: The SkyComp link for the 7590 says 2 years warranty, but the CPL one says 5 years. The AVM Web page for the 7590 says 5 years.

2yr local warranty according to the distributors - http://firstint.com.au/avm7590-technicaldata/

Thanks for finding that, but

It's not a big issue for me, though.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

The downside of the 7590 is price: a fairly hefty ~$350 (the 7390 cost ~$280). But it may not be much more than a bunch of boxes that do the same thing.

If you don't want to pay the big bickies for the 7590, then there is its baby bro' the 7530 -
Same VDSL chipset as 7590
Wireless speeds are a bit slower - 866 'N' + 400 'N'
No seperate WAN port (EWAN via LAN1)
1 less USB port
~$180 https://staticice.com.au/cgi-bin/search ... 530&spos=1

"I've been pleasantly surprised by the sync rates my recently acquired 7530 is currently getting which are closer to the sync rates of the Broadcom based Netgear D6220 it replaced than I was expecting: 37.5Mbps down, 8.6Mbps up compared to the D6220's 38.5Mbps down, 9.4Mbps up. This is a fair bit better than I got from a 7490 (from memory 33.5Mbps down and 8Mbps up) though the comparison isn't quite fair as the cabling arrangement from wall point to DSL socket isn't identical for each modem. Line length is reported as 903m (7490 reported line lengths of 875-915m at various times)."
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/ ... #r66885289

Netgear D6220 mentioned above has a Broadcom BCM63168 DSL chipset, same as your HG658.

[Henk]

Some useful links:

FRITZ!Box 7490 - AVM
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2253993

AVM FRITZ!Box 7490 Detailed Spec list
https://bc.whirlpool.net.au/bc/hardware ... el_id=1507

FRITZ!Box 7590 - AVM - Modems/Routers
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive ... #r53119728

AVM FRITZ!Box 7590 Detailed Spec list
https://bc.whirlpool.net.au/bc/hardware ... el_id=1771

FRITZ! Lab | Fresh from development | Choose Överview" tab
https://en.avm.de/fritz-lab/fresh-from- ... velopment/

Index of /fritzbox/fritzbox-7590/other/fritz.os/ (the current firmware)
https://ftp.avm.de/fritzbox/fritzbox-75 ... /fritz.os/

[prl]

Thanks, Henk. I've had a Fritz!Box 7390 for about 13 years. I know the AVM pages and the AVM Whirlpool forum.

I didn't know about the detailed specs on Whirlpool - that was useful, mostly for confirming what I thought I knew already

[raymondjpg]

If you favoured your Huawei for some functions you could perhaps look at the Huawei HG659. Dodo provided me with one of these when I switched over to NBN. I don't know if it has all of the features you are looking for, but it does have DHCP address reservation, two phone jacks and I'm pretty sure gigabit ethernet ports.

It's a lot cheaper than a Fritzbox, but like the 658 it's a pain to configure. Also, Chinese if you're going to have a problem with that.

[prl]

I've ordered a Fritz!Box 7590.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

I've ordered a Fritz!Box 7590.

It took you long enough - I suggested that last Wednesday

I'd be interested to find out the line sync you get with it. Of course, line sync can change over minutes, hours, sometimes days until the modem and node agree on the line conditions.