Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV channels

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Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV channels

Post by prl » Wed Dec 09, 2015 13:00

The T series picon system relies (mainly) on the triples Originating Network ID (ONID)/Transport Stream ID (TSID)/Stream ID (SID) in the PVR's scan data to match channels with picons.

One of the problems with that are that there are quite large numbers of them (my current incomplete lists have over 400 different triples) and I need to rely on people sending me in data to compile the mappings for the picons whenever the channels change or someone wants to add a new region.

I have found such a list amongst the FreeTV Operational Practices: Australian Digital Terrestrial Television Broadcasting Service Information Register.

There are two things that prevent me using it: first, it's more than 2 years out of date (9 October 2013), and it's published in a form that's ideally suited to the processing of the data in it: a PDF document </sarcasm>.

Does anyone have any idea where I might find a current list that has that data in it? It appears that the document is prepared from an Excel spreadsheet; that would be ideal. A computer-processable list in the form of Table 2 Service Listings in the document would also be fine. Even something marginal like screen-scraping a HTML table with the data in it would probably be OK.

These allocations seem to be up to FreeTV and its member broadcasters. I haven't found anything relevant on the ACMA site.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanB » Thu Dec 10, 2015 00:25

Peter,

As you are finding this is a very arduous approach. There are just to many service triplets, pushing close to 900 combinations.

Yes the data is slightly old. Anyhow, I did an extract to CSV format of the Table 2 Service Listings on pages 7 and following. :-
lcns.csv
Table 2 Service Listings as CSV format
(50.53 KiB) Downloaded 29 times

I did some quick analysis and was surprised to find there are actually only 114 unique LCN - Service Name combinations. And 18 are just NBN playing funny buggers with 6 flavors each of NBN, Gem and Go! :-
Service.csv
Sort Unique by LCN then Service Name as CSV format
(5.79 KiB) Downloaded 32 times

Further if we get brutal and just grab 1 instance for each LCN we end up with only 63 combinations. :-
Unique.csv
Single LCN to Service mapping as CSV format
(1.33 KiB) Downloaded 30 times

A while ago I posted about an simple AWK script to parse the lcndb file into a set of picon lcn to service links. viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7461&p=106261#p106261

If we key off LCN we probably get better than 98% coverage with a carefully selected default mapping. To pickup the outliers we probably need less then 10 alternate LCN to service mappings.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:37

Hi Prl,

I am making enquiries to get a live feed of this data. If not I hope to at least achieve a current version of the data.

Regards,
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by simoncasey » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:49

This would be a practical reason for the T series to somehow use the LCN as opposed to just a general user preference.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by peteru » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:33

LCN won't help. The service name would be a better option.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Fri Dec 11, 2015 15:51

peteru wrote:... The service name would be a better option.
It may be less better than you think. Because of the tendency for the commercial broadcasters to add the region served name to their service names, there are still a lot of service names.

In my current data I have ~450 distinct servicerefs, and ~130 distinct service names. I'm not sure where I can source the exact service names from. The service names in the FreeTV Information Register I posted the link to don't have the location name in the service name.

Here's what some of the servicenames actually look like:

Code: Select all

7 Sun Coast
7 Toowoomba
7TWO
7TWO Bendigo
7TWO Canberra
7TWO Central Coast
7TWO Newcastle
7TWO Orange
7TWO Wollongong
7mate
7mate Bendigo
7mate Canberra
7mate Central Coast
7mate Newcastle
7mate Orange
The region naming isn't even consistent: "7 Sun Coast" vs "WIN Sunshine Coast" and "SC10 Sunshine Coast", for the same region. :roll:

The most obvious source for service names is from the data I already collect, which anyway has all the servicerefs.

Additionally, if the user edits the servicename, they break the link to the picon.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by simoncasey » Fri Dec 11, 2015 16:04

Even when the channel is the same, it's sometimes given a different name eg Seven, 7 Digital, 7 Digital 1
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Fri Dec 11, 2015 16:31

simoncasey wrote:Even when the channel is the same, it's sometimes given a different name eg Seven, 7 Digital, 7 Digital 1
That's not really part of the problem, provided I have all the names.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Sun Dec 13, 2015 15:02

IanSav wrote:... I am making enquiries to get a live feed of this data. If not I hope to at least achieve a current version of the data. ...
Thanks, Ian. That would be ideal.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Sun Dec 13, 2015 15:09

Hi Prl,

I am a little pissed than neither of the organisations I contacted have returned my call. (Both promised a call back for the same day as my call.) I will chase both up on Monday.

If I can get you an on-line live update of the data then future changes should be much easier to track and updates can be made far more quickly if not automatically. :)

Regards,
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Sun Dec 13, 2015 15:11

IanSav wrote:... If I can get you an on-line live update of the data then future changes should be much easier to track and updates can be made far more quickly if not automatically. :)
...
Yes, that would be ideal.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Fri Dec 18, 2015 15:06

Hi Prl,

Sorry for the delay. Tony's post in another thread about a new MPEG4 channel on LCN-76 (Seven Network) reminded me that I haven't got the answer to this for you. I contacted the ACMA again and now they have asked for the request in writing. I will get to that ASAP.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by tonymy01 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 15:20

Ahh, this is the thread! Yay.
This is the full Sydney now with this extra 7 network (non-duplicate to 7,71 this time, it is actually hogging some bandwidth) on LCN76:

Code: Select all

eeee0000 1013 0502 0520 00007 00053738
eeee0000 1013 0502 0524 00070 00053738
eeee0000 1013 0502 0521 00071 00053738
eeee0000 1013 0502 0522 00072 00053738
eeee0000 1013 0502 0523 00073 00053738
eeee0000 1013 0502 0527 00074 00053738
eeee0000 1013 0502 0528 00078 00053738
eeee0000 3202 0300 0301 00003 00065535
eeee0000 3202 0300 0306 00030 00065535
eeee0000 3202 0300 0302 00032 00065535
eeee0000 3202 0300 0304 00033 00065535
eeee0000 3202 0300 0305 00034 00065535
eeee0000 3202 0300 030e 00037 00065535
eeee0000 3202 0300 030f 00038 00065535
eeee0000 3202 0300 0310 00039 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0421 00009 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0422 00090 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0423 00099 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0424 00094 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0425 00095 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0426 00091 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0427 00092 00065535
eeee0000 1012 0420 0428 00093 00065535
eeee0000 1014 0602 0621 00001 00065535
eeee0000 1014 0602 0625 00010 00065535
eeee0000 1014 0602 0626 00014 00065535
eeee0000 1014 0602 0627 00012 00065535
eeee0000 1014 0602 0628 00011 00065535
eeee0000 1014 0602 0629 00015 00065535
eeee0000 1010 0221 0220 00024 00028835
eeee0000 1010 0221 0221 00002 00028835
eeee0000 1010 0221 0222 00022 00028835
eeee0000 1010 0221 0223 00021 00028835
eeee0000 1010 0221 0224 00023 00028835
eeee0000 1010 0221 0226 00200 00028835
eeee0000 1010 0221 0227 00201 00028835
eeee0000 0039 0002 002c 00044 00000000
eeee0000 1013 0502 0525 00076 00053738
The securi firewall junk keeps coming up no matter how i try to obscure the triplet list! Edit 1000... ok, removing colons did it.
Tony

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Fri Dec 18, 2015 21:41

IanSav wrote:... Sorry for the delay. Tony's post in another thread about a new MPEG4 channel on LCN-76 (Seven Network) reminded me that I haven't got the answer to this for you. I contacted the ACMA again and now they have asked for the request in writing. I will get to that ASAP. ...
Thanks, Ian. Is this some sort of state secret?
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Sat Dec 19, 2015 00:34

Hi Prl,

Written request sent to the ACMA.

I tried some other organisations for the information and was treated like I was requesting some sort of heavily guarded trade secret! Who are you? Who do you work for? Where are you located? (Exact address please.) What is your phone number? What is your E-Mail address? Why do you want the information? What are you going to do with the information? Etc. I did not provide all the requested information as they normally made the information public anyway. I suspect they filed my request in /dev/null. :(

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:42

I'm beginning to wonder about whether the responses are simply bluster around the fact that there is no single repository of this information (or there is no longer one).

The FreeTV list hasn't been updated in two years, despite a number of changes having been made in the meantime. If FreeTV used to collate that information, why would they bother if ACMA had a (presumably authoritative) list?

The other FreeTV document about the allocation of the triples is about the allocation of ranges of values to the broadcasters (FreeTV OP 40 - Allocation of DVB Service Information Codes for Australia). Perhaps within that it's now a complete free-for-all.

Was FreeTV one of the organisations you contacted? If not, I may give it a go, e.g. just asking whether there's an update available to Australian Digital Terrestrial Television Broadcasting Service Information Register and whether it's available in spreadsheet form.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:11

Hi Prl,

My previous post was about FreeTV! There is nothing free or open about them!

The person who maintains the document in question have been overseas for a very long time but has just returned to Australia. He will apparently get to update the document "in due course".

Regards,
Ian.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:44

IanSav wrote:...
The person who maintains the document in question have been overseas for a very long time but has just returned to Australia. He will apparently get to update the document "in due course".
...
:shock: :roll:

So I was right to some extent. The networks assign TSIDs and SIDs as they will within their range, and FreeTV tries, not very hard, to keep up.

Did you ask about getting the information in a more processing-friendly format, like a spreadsheet? It's very frustrating that the data is clearly maintained as a spreadsheet (hopefully with something smarter behind it), but published as a PDF.

Looks like I'd better try to see how hard it is to scrape what I want out of the PDF, but the update process doesn't fill me with confidence that the data will be in any way usable in the time frame that I'd want it, even if the maintainer doesn't swan off overseas "for a very long time".

It looks like my current process may turn out to be the least bad option. :(
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:54

Hi Prl,

FreeTV were not very helpful. The woman I spoke to slanted more towards rude than helpful. She was more interested in interrogating me rather than allowing me to get the information we were after.

I am still researching and hunting down possible sources of easier to use accurate information. I haven't given up yet.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by peteru » Sat Dec 19, 2015 13:00

What would be cool is an automated process that runs after a scan and POSTs the list of scanned channels to a Beyonwiz server. The server could return the mapping for the picon names. The maintainer of the picons could then see which triplets are being requested and update the maps as required. When a new update is released, these maps could be used to generate the picon database resident on the box itself, so that the firmware does not require an Internet connection.

There is enough information available to make a fairly good guess as to what needs to be mapped to what. The scan will give not only the triplet, but also the network name, service name and LCN. That information should probably be sent too.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Sat Dec 19, 2015 13:06

While I like the idea, I'm not keen on uploads from the user's device, even though the data isn't (as far as I can see) personal. If it were to be implemented, I think it should be opt-in. But that means that there would be some of the coverage and timeliness problems I have with the current scheme.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Sat Dec 19, 2015 14:07

Hi,

One of the sources I wanted to recommend was the SiliconDust Lineup Server. This was an on-line database of all channels and services found by all HDHomeRun TV tuners in the world. There was quite a comprehensive list of service data for Australia. Unfortunately SiliconDust have withdrawn the service and now point Australian users to http://myswitch.digitalready.gov.au/ which contains outdated information. :(

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Tue Dec 22, 2015 09:46

Hi Prl,

ACMA responded to say that they have delegated the management on the ONID/TSID/SID triplets and similar digital TV details to FreeTV Australia.

They also referred me to the FreeTV OP-40, 71 and 72 documents for further information. If you haven't looked at OP-40 it is interesting because it defines the working ranges of the numbers around Australia. While it doesn't define the exact values it does allow you to classify the general location of any numbers you can't explain.

I wrote back to the ACMA explaining that FreeTV are not maintaining current versions of the ONID/TSID/SID triplets data and asked if they have the raw data available. I pointed out we don't need a pretty formatted PDF document and would be happy with a plain text file, html table or CSV spreadsheet. I am awaiting a reply to my follow-up question.

Regards,
Ian.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:43

Thanks, Ian.
IanSav wrote: ACMA responded to say that they have delegated the management on the ONID/TSID/SID triplets and similar digital TV details to FreeTV Australia.
That's more-or-less what I thought. The joys of outsourcing!
IanSav wrote:They also referred me to the FreeTV OP-40, 71 and 72 documents for further information. If you haven't looked at OP-40 it is interesting because it defines the working ranges of the numbers around Australia. While it doesn't define the exact values it does allow you to classify the general location of any numbers you can't explain.
I've looked at OP-40. While it's useful background, it's not nearly specific enough for me to make use of it to construct mappings from triplet to picon. OPs 71 and 72 don't, as far as I can see, supply any information about the triples than isn't already in OP 40.
IanSav wrote:I wrote back to the ACMA explaining that FreeTV are not maintaining current versions of the ONID/TSID/SID triplets data and asked if they have the raw data available. I pointed out we don't need a pretty formatted PDF document and would be happy with a plain text file, html table or CSV spreadsheet. I am awaiting a reply to my follow-up question.
...
Thanks for your efforts on this. In fact plain text, HTML tables, CSV or Excel spreadsheets would be far more useful to me than a PDF.

However, if this process has to be gone through each time an update is needed, it hardly seems worth the effort.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:01

Hi Prl,
prl wrote:Thanks for your efforts on this. In fact plain text, HTML tables, CSV or Excel spreadsheets would be far more useful to me than a PDF.

However, if this process has to be gone through each time an update is needed, it hardly seems worth the effort.
Apart from the Picon work I haven't contributed much to your efforts in this area. I am happy to keep trying to get this sorted out for you.

Any of your time I can free up could be more time you can spend making code improvements. :)

Regards,
Ian.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:05

Thanks again, but the idea of this topic was to try to make things easier, not to get you mired in the accountability gaps of TV broadcast regulation :(
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:10

Hi Prl,

It has kind of progressed to a sort of challenge now. I won't push forever but I still have some more drive left for this issue. :)

Regards,
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:15

OK, thanks. I can't but admire the persistence.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Tue Dec 22, 2015 16:09

Hi Prl,

Didn't hear anything back from ACMA (yet) so I put in a written request to FreeTV Engineering for an update. Given the time of year we may not get an update for a while yet. I will update the thread as news comes to hand.

On a good news front, the Australian Picon update has now made its way to International Engima2 feeds! :)

Regards,
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by cwiggles » Wed Dec 23, 2015 16:26

IanSav wrote:On a good news front, the Australian Picon update has now made its way to International Engima2 feeds! :)
Oooh. I wonder if that means it will make it to OpenPli on my DUO2 :) Sorry, had to ask! :)

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Wed Dec 23, 2015 20:22

Hi Craig,

There is all possibility that it will be there. It was not automatic in that I had to fetch the update on the OpenATV 5.1 build.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:48

Hi Prl,

No replies to any of my messages so I doubt we will hear anything more until next year. Hopefully I can get you the information and it will have all the pending Seven Network changes so that the next update will be a little easier to manage.

Regards,
Ian.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Tue Feb 23, 2016 18:16

Hi Prl,

I spoke with FreeTV today and the ONID/TSID/SID triplet table document is due to be updated within the next few weeks.

Unfortunately ABC and SBS are not part of FreeTV, further Win TV has withdrawn from FreeTV. That means that the data for these broadcasters may not be accurate.

I was also advised that this document is reactive in that it only updated after the changes have happened. To get more timely updates we need to contact the engineering departments of *all* broadcasters and have ourselves added to their change notification lists.

I'll get back to you when I see the updated documents.

Regards,
Ian.

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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by prl » Tue Feb 23, 2016 18:29

Thanks for your efforts, Ian, but the document doesn't sound all that promising.
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Re: Listings for ONID/TSID/SID triplets for digital TV chann

Post by IanSav » Tue Feb 23, 2016 18:34

Hi Prl,

Lets see what we get. If it is not good enough I will look for alternative or more direct sources of the information.

Regards,
Ian.

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