A quick guide to Beyonwiz T series AutoTimers

[prl]

... I've no reason to believe they will be different programming but then when did reason enter into Oz TV programming.
...

SBS very occasionally has different content on SBS HD to what they have on the SD SBS channel. The last time I recall that happening it was for some arrangement around live broadcasts of soccer matches.

[prl]

...

Would putting the HD services earlier in the bouquet change which one gets chosen?

Not from my testing. I don't believe bouquet order will influence timer generation (but bouquet contents will of course).
...

The matching of EPG entries to an AutoTimer is done by constructing a query over the EPG data. I haven't looked in detail at how the query search is ordered, but it wouldn't surprise me if the bouquet order had anything to do with the search order. The service refs corresponding to the bouquet channels are part of the query.

[Gully]

Thanks Peter.

I'll do some testing by placing the HD services higher and see if it makes a difference.

I think the 3 in Melbourne that tend to simulcast as are SBS, 7 and 9.

[prl]

... I'll do some testing by placing the HD services higher and see if it makes a difference. ...

Grumpy_Geoff said he tried doing that, but it didn't work. I have no reason to think that he's wrong.

[Gully]

... I'll do some testing by placing the HD services higher and see if it makes a difference. ...

Grumpy_Geoff said he tried doing that, but it didn't work. I have no reason to think that he's wrong.

Sorry but when I read your response just above I read it as you saying you weren't so certain.

Anyway, haven't had time to try anything so would be happy for suggestions before I experiment more.

One more question - what stops the autotimer from creating 2 timers at the same time for the 2 services? I get timers for repeats with different times/days but not usually for the identical time/day.

[prl]

... I'll do some testing by placing the HD services higher and see if it makes a difference. ...

Grumpy_Geoff said he tried doing that, but it didn't work. I have no reason to think that he's wrong.

Sorry but when I read your response just above I read it as you saying you weren't so certain.

I meant that the order was likely to be pretty arbitrary and not controlled by the order in the bouquet. That's consistent with what Grumpy_Geoff has observed.

One more question - what stops the autotimer from creating 2 timers at the same time for the 2 services? I get timers for repeats with different times/days but not usually for the identical time/day.

I'd need to dig around in the AutoTimer code and the EPG query code to answer that. That part of the AutoTimer code is pretty ugly, and I've never looked at how the EPG query works in any detail.

[Gully]

Thanks for the clarification, Peter.

I might try checking some other settings to see if they might help.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

... I'll do some testing by placing the HD services higher and see if it makes a difference. ...

Grumpy_Geoff said he tried doing that, but it didn't work. I have no reason to think that he's wrong.

Yep, I added "Nine" into my "HD Channels" bouquet at a lower position than "9HD".
I then created an AutoTimer for "Nine News Now" which is a Mon-Fri program, restricting it to that "HD Channels" bouquet.
The AutoTimer plugin created 5 timers against "Nine". I deleted those timers and tried again - same result. Rinse, repeat (3rd time) - with same result.
Delete "Nine" from that bouquet and of course the plugin created the timers on "9HD".

[Gully]

Thanks Grumpy_Geoff, that clearly shows it isn't the answer. Shame.

[IanB]

I think you will find when using Bouquet filtering on an autotimer that you still get duplicate timers for all the matching programs across all the available channels in that bouquet. This is pretty much like with no service filtering you get duplicate recordings on all duplicated services.

The unique description settings can somewhat filter against this but in practise may compromise successive recordings when TV stations use the same canned description every week.

The alternate service stuff is pretty useless for us. It works by trying to find a copy of the required program on channels declared as alternates when the initial timer would cause a tuner clash, the theory being the alternate may have another tuner available for another service of the alternate provider. So this might be helpful for people in the NSW/Qld border region, generally we have a single broadcaster per channel set regime.

[diesel]

Hi Guys

Running a T3 with the latest official FW

When setting up an auto timer (or later trying to edit one) through the GUI, I would like to edit the title. We have missed a couple shows (I think) because some shows have the word new at the end of the title or "includes a sneak peek of 'x' show" and if these words are not in next weeks show, no timer is created.

Is there a way to edit the auto timer using the GUI. I think I can do it via the WizOS app on the iPad but prefer to do it with the remote.

[Gully]

Is there a way to edit the auto timer using the GUI. I think I can do it via the WizOS app on the iPad but prefer to do it with the remote.

Yes, just use the arrow keys to move to the end and the next/prev keys to delete.

[raymondjpg]

I am trying to set an autotimer for a program being simulcast on ABC and ABC HD, from the Webif interface. I have specified both ABC and ABC HD as channels in the autotimer, and not required a unique description.

What I am trying to get is a timer for each of the two channels concurrently. At the moment I can only get one or the other. What should I be doing?

[prl]

I thought at first that the problem was that the ABC uses the same EIT event id for corresponding events on ABC and ABC HD.

However, even I I use the IceTV EPG, which has different event ids for corresponding events on ABC and ABC HD, I only get one recording timer set for each matched show time.

I tried doing it both with a single autotimer for both ABC and ABC HD, and with two autotimers, one for ABC and one for ABC HD.

I tried setting "Record a maximum of x times" to 2 with a single timer for both ABC and ABC HD, and it didn't create any timers at all. But I suspect that that setting is intended for something else. The description text for the setting isn't all that helpful.

[raymondjpg]

I thought at first that the problem was that the ABC uses the same EIT event id for corresponding events on ABC and ABC HD.

However, even I I use the IceTV EPG, which has different event ids for corresponding events on ABC and ABC HD, I only get one recording timer set for each matched show time.

I tried doing it both with a single autotimer for both ABC and ABC HD, and with two autotimers, one for ABC and one for ABC HD.

I tried setting "Record a maximum of x times" to 2 with a single timer for both ABC and ABC HD, and it didn't create any timers at all. But I suspect that that setting is intended for something else. The description text for the setting isn't all that helpful.

Thanks. I tried all of that as well, without success.

The only way I can get the concurrent timers is to set one or other manually. The problem I have with that is that while autotimers can be set to update, manually set timers, AFAICT, cannot.

[prl]

... while autotimers can be set to update, manually set timers, AFAICT, cannot.

That is correct, and that is why autotimers exist.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...
I tried doing it both with a single autotimer for both ABC and ABC HD, and with two autotimers, one for ABC and one for ABC HD.

I tried both ways and whilst the 'preview' showed two timers to be generated on the two different services, only one timer was generated in each case.
I tried also with no service/bouquet filtering, and whilst the preview showed 3 timers for the 3 services (SD, SD-simulcast, and HD), I still only had one generated.
It's almost as if 'description uniqueness' was being applied (which as we know, isn't tested in preview-mode)..

I'm sure this behaviour is now different - previously I think we would have got a timer on each service. At least that is the impression I'm left with when I re-read this whole thread.

[IanSav]

Hi,

I am distracted by other mattesr but wanted to quickly inject that I seem to be having problems with AutoTimers since moving to the beta firmware. Events that were correctly being recorded in the past are now being missed. No timer events are being created though the show is there and new. I need to sort this out but can;t at the moment. I am posting in case someone has an explanation and/or, more importantly, a fix.

Regards,
Ian.

[prl]

...
I tried both ways and whilst the 'preview' showed two timers to be generated on the two different services, only one timer was generated in each case.
...

Interesting observation.

Preview doesn't apply the "similar recording removal". perhaps turning that off would allow both to record.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...
I tried both ways and whilst the 'preview' showed two timers to be generated on the two different services, only one timer was generated in each case.
...

Interesting observation.

Preview doesn't apply the "similar recording removal". perhaps turning that off would allow both to record.

No test for 'uniqueness' in the definition -

Code: Select all

<timer name="test - ABC SD/HD" match="Pointless" enabled="yes" after="1482336000" before="1482336000" overrideAlternatives="1"></timer>

[Paul_oz53]

Grumpy_Geoff,
I am no expert on autotimers but what does override Alternatives do?
Does setting it to off fix anything?

I'm using IceTV but I find a lot of errors in the EPG and recordings. I often wonder if using the EPG and autotimers would be a better choice. But I find the autotimer options hard to decipher.
Paul

[prl]

You wouldn't normally have any alternatives set up anyway.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

Hi Paul,

Grumpy_Geoff,
I am no expert on autotimers but what does override Alternatives do?
Does setting it to off fix anything?

As prl stated, unlikely to apply here. see this explanation of their use

I tested it anyway, and it makes no difference. With or without 'alternatives', AutoTimer 'preview' shows 6 timers to be generated for tomorrow but only 2 get generated; one in the morning and one in the 'arvo, both on the SD service.

I'm using IceTV but I find a lot of errors in the EPG and recordings. I often wonder if using the EPG and autotimers would be a better choice. But I find the autotimer options hard to decipher.

I'm an IceTV use as well, I have only a couple of AutoTimers enabled - mainly because I couldn't find a way of getting Ice to schedule in a time window.
If you need help with deciphering the AutoTimer options, then this is the place to ask. I'm sure there'll be an answer from someone

Cheers,
Geoff

[Paul_oz53]

Thanks guys.

Alternatives are the reverse of what I had imagined. Like you Geoff, I only rarely use autotimers. Mainly when I come across something and I'm offline to IceTV - usually because the phone is not in the room (I almost exclusively use the phone app in normal programming. I find the website tedious.)

I'll probably whine about the errors in the guide but keep using IceTV. What annoys me is missing the start of various programs despite setting recordings to 7 mins early, 35 mins late. I mean, how much more can you need?

Paul

[raymondjpg]

I'll probably whine about the errors in the guide but keep using IceTV. What annoys me is missing the start of various programs despite setting recordings to 7 mins early, 35 mins late. I mean, how much more can you need?Paul

I think IceTV do their best but find it near impossible to keep up with late changes to scheduling. I don't know what their policy is now but it used to be that changes to scheduling were set by 1.00 pm. I have regularly found later changes in OTA EPG, and run EPGRefresh at 6.30 pm which picks up most changes for that evening's programs. In about a year of operation I have only had one instance of an autotimer set for 5 minutes early 25 minutes late to fail, when the show started more than 5 minutes early. Needless to say that was on network 9.

I don't record that many programs and it is entirely possible that there would have been more failures if I had been recording more. However with what I have seen both here and on the IceTV forum, autotimers are more likely to succeed than IceTV most of the time. I think that EPGRefresh can be set to run at hourly intervals, although I have no need to do that.

I do, however, value my subscription to IceTV and use it to cross-check what I schedule on my T2. I also use it for scheduling recordings on a DP P2 where I have found 10 minutes early 20 minutes late to cover most exigencies, other than scheduled overruns due to reality TV programs or cricket. Again, not many recording events so my experience may not be typical, but from what you say 7 minutes early is just not enough in some cases. If 10 minutes early still results in missing program starts I would seriously consider switching to autotimers.

[IanSav]

Hi Raymondjpg,

I think that EPGRefresh can be set to run at hourly intervals, although I have no need to do that.

If you can find how to do this I would very much appreciate the information.

Regards,
Ian.

[prl]

Hi Raymondjpg,

I think that EPGRefresh can be set to run at hourly intervals, although I have no need to do that.

If you can find how to do this I would very much appreciate the information.
...

I had a dig around in the code, and there doesn't seem to be a way to do it.

[IanSav]

Hi Prl,

I had a dig around in the code, and there doesn't seem to be a way to do it.

I would like to have EPGRefresh run a number of times a day and never found a way to do it.

Thanks for looking.

Regards,
Ian.

[raymondjpg]

Hi Prl,

I had a dig around in the code, and there doesn't seem to be a way to do it.

I would like to have EPGRefresh run a number of times a day and never found a way to do it.

Thanks for looking.

Regards,
Ian.

And I thought that I had seen a setting at some stage to run EPGRefresh at set intervals, but clearly not. It is not in the options currently, and historical guides for EPGRefresh do not give the option.

[prl]

I tried to use Preview on an AutoTimer in the current beta (2016-12-16), and all I got was an error popup reporting an exception.

I'll report more fully in the beta section.

[prl]

I tried to use Preview on an AutoTimer in the current beta (2016-12-16), and all I got was an error popup reporting an exception.

I'll report more fully in the beta section.

This is now fixed in today's beta update (2016-12-22).

When I use preview of an AutoTimer that has both ABC and ABC HD in its list of services, Preview finds matches for both ABC and ABC HD, but timers are only set on ABC.

While it's not what raymondjpg wants, it's arguably not incorrect (i.e. there's a reasonable use case that it matches), though there doesn't seem to be a way to prioritise the choice of service (e.g. to emulate IceTV's "prefer HD").

The only question remaining is whether there is some way to force it to do what raymondjpg wants.

[MrQuade]

I don't really want to question raymondjpg's requirement for this feature, as I can see that it might be advantageous to have both a HD MPEG4 recording and a MPEG2 recording in case you had some codec-limited media clients.

But as prl says, the current Autotimer behaviour would be correct for 90% of users (how many threads do we have about users wanting to eliminate duplicate recordings for example).

Is this something that raymonejpg needs to do on a regular basis or was this a one off?
I just ask, since a lot of effort could be spent trying to solve a very edge-case problem, and could end up negatively affecting the 90% use case.

If it is a one-off, or for an event with a reasonbly predictable schedule, then manual timers with generous padding is the obvious solution, despite raymondjpg's aversion to using non-autotimers. If this is an application for which Autotimers are actually genuinely needed for their additional power-features (ie. automatically finding events at unpredictable times and/or by description searches), then perhaps it is worth looking into a fix for.

[prl]

... If this is an application for which Autotimers are actually genuinely needed for their additional power-features (ie. automatically finding events at unpredictable times and/or by description searches), then perhaps it is worth looking into a fix for.

I'm not sure that it's correct to call it a "fix". I'd put it down as an "enhancement" if I were putting it in the Beyonwiz issue tracker. The same as I would if I were entering a request to make the order of the service entries in the AutoTimer service list represent prioritisation of the service use.

I probably won't have time to have a proper look at whether there's a workaround for this until the new year. I'm not sure whether the repository managers would accept an enhancement to allow for it (perhaps a "record one/record all" setting in the service filter list, and perhaps also in the bouquets filter list).

[Grumpy_Geoff]

...
I probably won't have time to have a proper look at whether there's a workaround for this until the new year.

I've a workaround, set up 2 AutoTimer definitions with slightly different padding -

Code: Select all

<timer name="test - ABC HD" match="Pointless" enabled="yes" from="16:10" to="16:20" after="1482422400" before="1482422400" offset="10,25" overrideAlternatives="1">
<serviceref>1:0:19:2E5:261:3201:EEEE0000:0:0:0:</serviceref>
<!--  ABC HD  -->
</timer>

<timer name="test - ABC SD" match="Pointless" enabled="yes" from="16:10" to="16:20" after="1482422400" before="1482422400" offset="10,30" overrideAlternatives="1">
<serviceref>1:0:1:2E3:261:3201:EEEE0000:0:0:0:</serviceref>
<!--  ABC  -->
</timer>

Log:

Code: Select all

{645}< 11989.693> [eEPGCache] lookup events with 'Pointless' in title (ignore case)
{645}< 11989.708> [RecordTimer] [AutoTimer] Try to add new timer based on AutoTimer test - ABC HD.
{645}< 11989.708> [RecordTimer] [AutoTimer] Timer start on: Fri Dec 23 16:05:00 2016
{645}< 11989.777> [RecordTimer] Record RecordTimerEntry(name=[R] Pointless, begin=Fri Dec 23 16:05:00 2016, end=Fri Dec 23 17:25:00 2016, serviceref=1:0:19:2E5:261:3201:EEEE0000:0:0:0:, justplay=0, isAutoTimer=True)
{645}< 11989.992> Skipping an event because of filter check
...
{645}< 11990.011> Skipping an event because of filter check
{3206}< 11990.516> [eEPGCache] lookup events with 'Pointless' in title (ignore case)
{3206}< 11990.524> Skipping an event because of filter check
{3206}< 11990.530> [RecordTimer] [AutoTimer] Try to add new timer based on AutoTimer test - ABC SD.
{3206}< 11990.531> [RecordTimer] [AutoTimer] Timer start on: Fri Dec 23 16:05:00 2016
{3206}< 11990.595> [RecordTimer] Record RecordTimerEntry(name=[R] Pointless, begin=Fri Dec 23 16:05:00 2016, end=Fri Dec 23 17:30:00 2016, serviceref=1:0:1:2E3:261:3201:EEEE0000:0:0:0:, justplay=0, isAutoTimer=True)

Timers generated -

[R] Pointless
23.12.2016 16:05 - 23.12.2016 17:25
ABC HD
Series 9: Episode 5
waiting

[R] Pointless
23.12.2016 16:05 - 23.12.2016 17:30
ABC
Series 9: Episode 5
waiting

[MrQuade]

I've a workaround, set up 2 AutoTimer definitions with slightly different padding -

Nice trick!

[raymondjpg]

I don't really want to question raymondjpg's requirement for this feature, as I can see that it might be advantageous to have both a HD MPEG4 recording and a MPEG2 recording in case you had some codec-limited media clients.

But as prl says, the current Autotimer behaviour would be correct for 90% of users (how many threads do we have about users wanting to eliminate duplicate recordings for example).

Is this something that raymonejpg needs to do on a regular basis or was this a one off?
I just ask, since a lot of effort could be spent trying to solve a very edge-case problem, and could end up negatively affecting the 90% use case.

If it is a one-off, or for an event with a reasonbly predictable schedule, then manual timers with generous padding is the obvious solution, despite raymondjpg's aversion to using non-autotimers. If this is an application for which Autotimers are actually genuinely needed for their additional power-features (ie. automatically finding events at unpredictable times and/or by description searches), then perhaps it is worth looking into a fix for.

I didn't ask for this feature, and I certainly wouldn't want to put people to any trouble implementing a "very edge-case problem". I was curious as to whether the ABC HD recording, upscaled or not, would be superior to the ABC SD recording. On a preliminary scan of Grantchester Christmas Special it looks like it is.

In the past I have, with the aid of IceTV, recorded both HD and SD versions of simulcast programs on Win (9), mainly because the HD versions often had problems with the audio track, particularly when broadcasting multi-channel audio. Given that both the video and audio tracks in ABC and ABC HD simulcasts are with different codecs, it is possible that there may on occasion be transport stream problems with one or other of the channel broadcasts. Also, with other services where there are SD and HD simulcasts. While I have yet to detect any broadcast of multi-channel audio in the ACT in recent times, I still live in hope.

So if it is not too much trouble, and others have commented that they think the feature has been available in the past, I would like to see it implemented [again]. Particularly as now with the T series, according to what I understand, simulcast programs on the same service should be accommodated by one tuner.

BTW I do not have any aversion to using non-autotimers. If necessary I will, and the simulcast situation is a case in point, realising that they do not auto-update from the epg and have to be adjusted manually if there are any changes to scheduling.

[raymondjpg]

I've a workaround, set up 2 AutoTimer definitions with slightly different padding -

That looks like a neat trick. How do I go about setting it up, particularly from the Webif interface?

[MrQuade]

I didn't ask for this feature, and I certainly wouldn't want to put people to any trouble implementing a "very edge-case problem". I was curious as to whether the ABC HD recording, upscaled or not, would be superior to the ABC SD recording. On a preliminary scan of Grantchester Christmas Special it looks like it is.

No problems, apologies if it sounded like I was accusing you of demanding things . I just thought I'd ask, since the conversations from others seemed to be very focussed on finding a solution for a problem that may not have needed one.

BTW I do not have any aversion to using non-autotimers. If necessary I will, and the simulcast situation is a case in point, realising that they do not auto-update from the epg and have to be adjusted manually if there are any changes to scheduling.

Ahh sorry, I was thinking of another post from DRdoS7 who sounds like he actively avoids using them.

[Grumpy_Geoff]

I've a workaround, set up 2 AutoTimer definitions with slightly different padding -

That looks like a neat trick. How do I go about setting it up, particularly from the Webif interface?

Cheers,
Geoff

[raymondjpg]

Thank you! That worked fine, even when I disabled the restrictions on timespan and dates. I might try a less obvious offset difference next time.

Edit: It worked also with a 2 minute offset difference.

[IanSav]

Hi Mike,

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but is there a way of changing the defaults in the auto timer set up? i.e. Having no specific day or time range without having to uncheck it every time.

From the main menu select AutoTimers then press MENU to bring up the AutoTimer options menu. Option 7 is the "Edit new timer defaults" option that should let you configure all the new timer default settings.

Regards,
Ian.

[prl]

...
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but is there a way of changing the defaults in the auto timer set up? i.e. Having no specific day or time range without having to uncheck it every time.
...

You'll find answers to that question and many others in A quick guide to Beyonwiz T series AutoTimers. I should really change the title. It's no longer "quick"; it's become quite extensive.

[mike007]

Hi Mike,

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but is there a way of changing the defaults in the auto timer set up? i.e. Having no specific day or time range without having to uncheck it every time.

From the main menu select AutoTimers then press MENU to bring up the AutoTimer options menu. Option 7 is the "Edit new timer defaults" option that should let you configure all the new timer default settings.

Regards,
Ian.

Thanks Ian but nothing I change in Option 7 gets rid of the ticks at the first screen when setting a auto timer.

[mike007]

...
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but is there a way of changing the defaults in the auto timer set up? i.e. Having no specific day or time range without having to uncheck it every time.
...

You'll find answers to that question and many others in A quick guide to Beyonwiz T series AutoTimers. I should really change the title. It's no longer "quick"; it's become quite extensive.

Thanks prl, I'll check it out.

[mike007]

...
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but is there a way of changing the defaults in the auto timer set up? i.e. Having no specific day or time range without having to uncheck it every time.
...

You'll find answers to that question and many others in A quick guide to Beyonwiz T series AutoTimers. I should really change the title. It's no longer "quick"; it's become quite extensive.

Right at the start of that post is says "If you go through the EPG, you get the Import AutoTimer screen, first screen in peteru's AutoTimers are cool post, and in that you probably want to untick everything except match title and exact match."

I don't want to have to untick everything every time. I'm trying to change those defaults.

Edit- it also says this so unless I'm missing something it can't be done?

Once you've worked out what settings you want most of the time, you can enter them in a similar editor screen in MENU>TV/RADIO>AutoTimer, then MENU>Edit new timer defaults. Once you've done that, you'll get those as the defaults in every new AutoTimer you create, but you still need to do that un-ticking in the first, because ticked items there will over-ride your defaults!

[prl]

... Thanks Ian but nothing I change in Option 7 gets rid of the ticks at the first screen when setting a auto timer.

If you use EPG, navigate to show, REC, BLUE (instead of EPG, navigate to show, BLUE) I think it should set up an AutoTimer using the defaults set in "Edit new timer defaults". However, it will create the AutoTimer immediately without giving you the opportunity to modify it.

You can still modify it in MENU>AutoTimer.

[prl]

You'll find answers to that question and many others in A quick guide to Beyonwiz T series AutoTimers. I should really change the title. It's no longer "quick"; it's become quite extensive.

Right at the start of that post is says "If you go through the EPG, you get the Import AutoTimer screen, first screen in peteru's AutoTimers are cool post, and in that you probably want to untick everything except match title and exact match."

I don't want to have to untick everything every time. I'm trying to change those defaults.

Edit- it also says this so unless I'm missing something it can't be done?

Once you've worked out what settings you want most of the time, you can enter them in a similar editor screen in MENU>TV/RADIO>AutoTimer, then MENU>Edit new timer defaults. Once you've done that, you'll get those as the defaults in every new AutoTimer you create, but you still need to do that un-ticking in the first, because ticked items there will over-ride your defaults!

That clearly needs some clarification.

[mike007]

You'll find answers to that question and many others in A quick guide to Beyonwiz T series AutoTimers. I should really change the title. It's no longer "quick"; it's become quite extensive.

Right at the start of that post is says "If you go through the EPG, you get the Import AutoTimer screen, first screen in peteru's AutoTimers are cool post, and in that you probably want to untick everything except match title and exact match."

I don't want to have to untick everything every time. I'm trying to change those defaults.

Edit- it also says this so unless I'm missing something it can't be done?

Once you've worked out what settings you want most of the time, you can enter them in a similar editor screen in MENU>TV/RADIO>AutoTimer, then MENU>Edit new timer defaults. Once you've done that, you'll get those as the defaults in every new AutoTimer you create, but you still need to do that un-ticking in the first, because ticked items there will over-ride your defaults!

That clearly needs some clarification.

Ok now I'm confused, can I get rid of the ticks on the first page setting up a auto timer or not?

[prl]

...
Ok now I'm confused, can I get rid of the ticks on the first page setting up a auto timer or not?

Did you try this? It's also not quite what you want. But if you've tried that and don't like it, you've exhausted the options.