New draft - Setting Timer Padding

[prl]

Posted by prl - I thought this warranted a post of its own, I can link to it from the FAQ, and it may need updating as FW changes.

Setting timer padding

TV programs in Australia frequently don't commence at their scheduled time in the published programs. Most often they start late, but some multicast HD programms start earlier than scheduled.

To help with this, the Beyonwiz lets you set "padding" around a timer, so that it starts before its scheduled start time, and stops after the scheduled stop time.

This can help with the problem, though some "reality TV" shows are notorious for running a long time past their scheduled end time.

To set padding: go to SETUP>Misc.>Preference, navigate to Soft Padding, and select Enable. Then navigate to Pre-Padding, and select the amount of padding you want before the program, and then navigate to Post-Padding and select the amount of padding you want after the program.

There's no one answer to the "right" settings for these padding values. It's a trade-off between the extra space you use on your HDD against how likely you are to miss part of the program. Common settings are 2-5 minutes for pre-padding and 10-30 minutes for post-padding. There are some posts of examples of people's padding setups in Padding Priority - Which do you use?

Pre- and Post-padding set desired extra time before and after the scheduled time for a program. So, for example, if Pre-padding is set to 5 min and Post-padding is set to 15 min, a timer set to record a program from 20:30 to 21:30 will normally run from 20:25 tp 21:45.

There's one further option, and it's to cover the case when you want to record two programs on the same tuner, and the padding for the two programs overlap. This most commonly happens when you want to record two consecutive programs from the same tuner.

Two timers with overlapping padding will be assigned to the same tuner if:

• They are on the same service (e.g. both on ABC1); or
• There is third timer that overlaps the start of the second timer

For example, these timer configurations will have recordings with overlapping padding assigned to the same tuner:

Code: Select all

         Set Timer   Desired timer
ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 *
ABC1     21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15 *

ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 *
Seven SD 21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15 *
Nine SD  20:30-22:30 20:25-22:45

ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 *
Seven SD 21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15 *
Nine SD  21:30-22:30 21:25-22:45

ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 *
Seven SD 21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15
Nine SD  21:30-22:30 21:25-22:45 *

The last two examples have the same timers, but the tuner allocation is ambiguous. The Beyonwiz will most likely assign the first two timers created to different tuners, and then assign the third timer to an available tuner. If the ABC1 timer is created first or second, then the assignment of the other two timers to tuners is clear; if one of the other two timers are set first, then ABC1, then the third timer could be assigned to either tuner.

This still doesn't exhaust all the possibilities, because when recordings are made from different services from the same broadcaster, they only use one tuner, but there are still rumes that prevent more than two recordings being made at the same time.

Soft Padding Priority allows you to change the behaviour of the padding when padding overlap happens, but I don't consider that any of the options actually "do the right thing".

None: Post padding continues for the first timer until it either completes, or the scheduled start time for the second timer begins. In this mode the scheduled time for each timer will always be recorded in full.
Pre-padding priority: The second timer will start at the beginning of its pre-padding time, stopping the first timer, even if the first timer is still within its scheduled time.
Post-Padding priority: The first timer will continue to run to the end of its post-padding, and stop the second timer from starting until then, even if that causes the second timer to start after the end of its scheduled start time.

The poll mentioned above had about 2/3 of the respondents using None and 1/4 using Post-padding.

The actual recordings made for the example above are, for each of the settings:

Code: Select all

                                   ---------- Padding priority --------
         Set Timer   Desired timer     None    Pre-padding Post-padding
ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 * 20:25-21:30 20:25-21:25 20:45-21:45
ABC1     21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15 * 21:30-22:15 21:25-22:15 21:45-22:15

ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 * 20:25-21:30 20:25-21:25 20:25-21:45
Seven SD 21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15 * 21:30-22:15 21:25-22:15 21:45-22:15
Nine SD  20:30-22:30 20:25-22:45   20:25-22:45 20:25-22:45 20:25-22:45

ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 * 20:25-21:30 20:25-21:25 20:25-21:45
Seven SD 21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15 * 21:30-22:15 21:25-22:15 21:45-22:15
Nine SD  21:30-22:30 21:25-22:45   21:25-22:45 21:25-22:45 21:25-22:45

ABC1     20:30-21:30 20:25-21:45 * 20:25-21:30 20:25-21:25 20:25-21:45
Seven SD 21:30-22:00 21:25-22:15   21:25-22:15 21:25-22:15 21:25-22:15 
Nine SD  21:30-22:30 21:25-22:45 * 21:30-22:45 21:25-22:45 21:45-22:45

It's a useful exercise to work out what bits of the actual broadcast will end up being recorded in which timer in cases where ABC1 is on time, ABC1 is running 5 minutes late, Seven is running 3 minutes late and Nine is running 10 minutes late.

When the overlap is because of consecutive timers on one service, the problem with all of these choices is that no matter which you chose, you're likely to get the end of the first program recorded in the first part of the second recording, or the start of the second program recorded in the end of the first recording. There's no way to guarantee that it won't happen, and the fact that now many commercial broadcasters run straight from the end credits of one program into the start of the next program, with the first ads in the second program coming a few minutes later means there's little margin for error.

There are three workarounds if the clash is because of consecuitve timers on the same service:

• adjust the timers manually (taking the padding rules into account) to make the switch between recordings at your best guess at the actual start time for the second recording - this has the same problem as the automatic padding, but at least you can make your guess based on how late the second program usually starts;
• combine the two recordings into a single recording. The simplest way to do this is to use the EPG to set the timer, then manually adjust it to cover both programs - unfortunately, it's not possible to do this with IceTV Remote, and if you're a watch-and-delete household, the second program might get deleted accidentally;
• record one program on the SD service and one on the HD service, if at least one of the programs is simulcast on SD and HD.

If Padding Priority changes the desired times of two recordings on different services, there's really not much you can do. It's for this case that some people prefer Post-padding priority to priorty none. If the second program is running late, then with Post-padding, you'll get find out whether it was the butler who "did it" in the first recording, but you'll be likely to miss the start of the second recording, unless it's running more that (in the examples) more than 15 minutes over time. With other settings, you'll never know whether it was the butler or not.

If the first program being recorded of a pair of recordings (where Padding Priority needs to change the desired timers) is running further later than the second recording, there are no timer possible timer settings either sing automatic padding, or using completely manual timers settings, that will record all of both programs. Time to get another recorder

A couple of final observations

• "Instant" recordings(pressing the REC button in Live TV mode) never have padding added to them; and
• Once a timer with padding starts, its padded start and end times are calculated and made unchangable. If you create a new timer whose padding overlaps with a running timer, it will only be able to start running when the currently running timer completes.

Edit: 12/10/09 Fixed "list" bug

[Gully]

Hi Peter

A good effort though I think the lengthy discussion of priority and examples is going to make it harder to follow.

The other thing that I think is missing is a clear and early point on the fact it is soft padding and only gets applied when the timer is due to start.

[prl]

Hi Peter

A good effort though I think the lengthy discussion of priority and examples is going to make it harder to follow.

The other thing that I think is missing is a clear and early point on the fact it is soft padding and only gets applied when the timer is due to start.

Thanks, Gully. I agree about the length being a problem; I disagree about the examples.

I'll move the last couple of dot points to an earlier position.

[Gully]

Hi Peter

A good effort though I think the lengthy discussion of priority and examples is going to make it harder to follow.

The other thing that I think is missing is a clear and early point on the fact it is soft padding and only gets applied when the timer is due to start.

Thanks, Gully. I agree about the length being a problem; I disagree about the examples.

I'll move the last couple of dot points to an earlier position.

I wasn't actually saying the examples were the problem just the whole thing is too long so needs cutting back. I leave the decision on what text and/or examples need to go.

[simoncasey]

There's one further option, and it's to cover the case when you want to record two programs on the same tuner, and the padding for the two programs overlap. This most commonly happens when you want to record two consecutive programs from the same tuner.

Two timers with overlapping padding will be assigned to the same tuner if:

• They are on the same service (e.g. both on ABC1); or
• There is third timer that overlaps the start of the second timer

I think this is a bit confusing for the new user. Why would you "want" to record two programs on the same tuner? It is more of a case that you have to because of the reasons you listed. I suggest changing those paragraphs around and editing them a little.

I think it is also worth stating explictly that if a show runs over to the extent that it overlaps the start of another show (and you have a third show) then there is no option but to miss part of one of the shows. It is implied by your comment that "there is no right answer".

It is worth adding that padding doesn't affect conflicts when you create timers, just the actual start and end time.

One of the tips that people use when they have two timers that end at the same time and one timer that starts immediately is to extend one of the timers by 1 minute to force it to use the single tuner and the other two shows to share a timer. This is useful if one of the is abc that rarely over runs and one often overuns.

Otheriwise, this is an excellent description of what is a complex issue, not because of how it works in the BW, but because as humans we aren't very good at thinking about "time" abstractly, which is why we have trouble with daylight saving and timezones etc.

Cheers

[prl]

There's one further option, and it's to cover the case when you want to record two programs on the same tuner, and the padding for the two programs overlap. This most commonly happens when you want to record two consecutive programs from the same tuner.

Two timers with overlapping padding will be assigned to the same tuner if:

• They are on the same service (e.g. both on ABC1); or
• There is third timer that overlaps the start of the second timer

I think this is a bit confusing for the new user. Why would you "want" to record two programs on the same tuner? It is more of a case that you have to because of the reasons you listed. I suggest changing those paragraphs around and editing them a little.

Hi, Simon. Thanks for your input.

Yes, this needs re-wording in the first sentence, and changing the passive "will be assigned to" in the second paragraph to "the Beyonwiz will assign" to make it clearer.

I think it is also worth stating explictly that if a show runs over to the extent that it overlaps the start of another show (and you have a third show) then there is no option but to miss part of one of the shows. It is implied by your comment that "there is no right answer".

I think I do cover this case explicitly:

If the first program being recorded of a pair of recordings (where Padding Priority needs to change the desired timers) is running further later than the second recording, there are no timer possible timer settings either sing automatic padding, or using completely manual timers settings, that will record all of both programs.

But the wording is muddy. I'll try to clarify.

It is worth adding that padding doesn't affect conflicts when you create timers, just the actual start and end time.
One of the tips that people use when they have two timers that end at the same time and one timer that starts immediately is to extend one of the timers by 1 minute to force it to use the single tuner and the other two shows to share a timer. This is useful if one of the is abc that rarely over runs and one often overuns.

Yes, those two are definitely worth adding.

Otheriwise, this is an excellent description of what is a complex issue, not because of how it works in the BW, but because as humans we aren't very good at thinking about "time" abstractly, which is why we have trouble with daylight saving and timezones etc.

Cheers

Thanks, Simon.

I'm thinking of adding "timeline" visuals to help make the examples clearer. While the tables I've posted contain all the necessary information, they do tend to swim before the eyes a bit. Even for me, and I know what they're supposed to show

This exercise has also been telling me about how little I know about the minutiae of timer assignment on the Beyonwiz, especially in its more obscure corners, for example when all three services involved in soft padding conflict resolution are on the same channel and so are assigned to the same tuner.

Maybe I need to do a "how tuner assignment works" section near the beginning

[prl]

Thanks to those who have (and will) provide feedback. I'm holding off making any changes until I've got a good idea of what people think about the new FAQ, then I'll make a fairly major revision to try to cover peoples suggestions and criticisms.

[madmax]

I just thought of something which is not covered here: if you have back-to-back timers on different services and you will be out when they happen, I think it's better to put your Wiz into standby (or the file player) so that both tuners can be used for recording. If you leave it on a third service, the Wiz will think you are watching something so you will end up losing the post-padding for the first recording.

Is this actually correct? I must admit I've never really sat down and tested it......

[prl]

I just thought of something which is not covered here: if you have back-to-back timers on different services and you will be out when they happen, I think it's better to put your Wiz into standby (or the file player) so that both tuners can be used for recording. If you leave it on a third service, the Wiz will think you are watching something so you will end up losing the post-padding for the first recording.

Is this actually correct? I must admit I've never really sat down and tested it......

I don't think it's correct, but I'm not absolutely certain. Once the first timer has started running, it gets assigned its actual start and end times. I don't think the length of the post-padding that's assigned to the running timer is affected by the service you are watching. In fact, the Beyonwiz is pretty definite about prioritising recordings over live TV. This happens both when two recordings on different channels start simultaneously and when back-to-back padded recordings on different channels are scheduled. So if we're watching ABC1, and recording Prime 20:30-21:30 and WIN 21:30-22:30, then (with 2 min pre-padding and 15 min post-padding) about 2 minutes before the WIN timer is due to fire, so at 21:36, we get the dreaded "all your tuner are belong to us" message, and off we scramble to switch the H1 on to watch ABC1 and tell the TV to take signal from that (we have an analog tuner TV). Both recordings get their full 15 minutes post padding.

[simoncasey]

I'm thinking of adding "timeline" visuals to help make the examples clearer. While the tables I've posted contain all the necessary information, they do tend to swim before the eyes a bit. Even for me, and I know what they're supposed to show

A picture is worth a thousand words

Maybe I need to do a "how tuner assignment works" section near the beginning

At the end might be a good idea, with a "see below for how tuner assignment works"

Cheers