Beyonwiz slaughtered by Topfield in recent marketing

[Mixtup]

Hi all,

The Olympics have precipitated a blitz of audio-visual equipment advertising in Australia, including the Tivo on ch.7. I couldn't help noticing in the chain store advertising brochures that Beyonwiz is absent and Topfield are everywhere. From memory, the following stores have advertised Topfield prominently: Dick Smith, Retravision, Good Guys & JB Hi Fi.

Visiting a few of these stores recently, I found stacks of Topfield boxes (plus the name brands, eg. Sony) but only 1 store (GG Brighton) actually had the DP-S1 in stock, and none of them had the Beyonwiz LCD display marketing thing working.

Take note Beyonwiz: your Aussie marketing efforts appear to be in serious trouble in Victoria - Topfield have a big lead. If you want to survive here, you should look at your Australian marketing plan in a hurry.

Many superior products fail due to poor marketing. As a Beyonwiz owner, it's in my interests that you succeed!

[buggosplat]

i know the sa market isn't as big as the vics, but i find its the opposite over here,
the brochures heavily advertise the beyonwiz, can't ever recall seeing the topfield even advertised

[IanSav]

Hi Mixtup,

Visiting a few of these stores recently, I found stacks of Topfield boxes (plus the name brands, eg. Sony) but only 1 store (GG Brighton) actually had the DP-S1 in stock, and none of them had the Beyonwiz LCD display marketing thing working.

The Beyonwiz LCD display was working fine at GG Brighton when I was in the store this week. They also had a Beyonwiz DP-S1, DP-P1, DP-P2 and LiDiC on display. (I must admit that I didn't notice a DP-H1 but I was busy and wasn't looking at the Beyonwiz display with much attention. I was looking at new LCD TVs. )

I think the Beyonwiz has a very effective marketing tool in its favour. The units generally work. There are very few reports of issues with the PVR functions. While there are issues with the Beyonwiz they never seem to be as disruptive as some of the problems reported for the Topfield. I also note a number of TiVo complaints as well. (Note: I am not interested in participating an a brand war I am just reporting my opinion based on reading the various product threads on the DVB forum.)

Rather than Corporate spending more money of advertising I would like to see them concentrate on product improvement and the Australian operation work on promotion.

Regards,
Ian.

[Gully]

I was looking at new LCD TVs. )

Hi Ian

Make sure you have a look at the Samsung Series 6.

I found them to be impressive and bought a 40" 650 series last month and have no regrets.

I just received my "free" Blu-ray player and looking forward to setting that up (once I get some discs )

[miroj]

The problem with Beyonwiz isnt the marketing at all. Its the sales channels and the price.

I will speak from experience so as to avoid any inferences.

* If you make a living as an installer there is no obvious avenue for purchasing the units wholesale. * When I was told to purchase BW from supplier X, Y, Z those prices were higher to trade than RRP at Dick Smith.

* eBay sellers were 2/3 the RRP price and nobody at head office could explain to me where or how that was possible (these were new units not repacks). Then for some silly reason the BW sales department tells me that their sales practices were cleared by the ACCC meaning that a whole raft of retailers have already had it with the importer. If you abuse the sales channel by making customers go to the ACCC then you already have a problem with goodwill.

* Similar products sell for much less including the better known Tivo

* Topfield has a model which handles Austar and that has a big subscriber base.

* Most of the advanced features are in the geek-zone. Like internet sharing and LAN download via a whacky utility.

* Some staff in retail outlets talk massive amounts of nonsense and imply features which dont exist ... such as being able to record over HDMI input.

* Topfield is more freely available and an older brand.

* Cost of IceTV is ludicrous.

In my experience ....it either works or it doesnt. If it does work then it has to work without giving you a headache or needing a 14 year old to sort it out.

Drop the price and make purchasing easier. Problem solved.

[IanSav]

Hi Gully,

Make sure you have a look at the Samsung Series 6.

I found them to be impressive and bought a 40" 650 series last month and have no regrets.

I just received my "free" Blu-ray player and looking forward to setting that up (once I get some discs )

I looked at the Series 6 and thought - why the hell is the cabinet RED!!!??? Yuck!

I am thinking of getting the Series 5 (LA32A550). Is there anything significant that I miss out on from the Series 6 that I don't get on the Series 5? This is not for the home theatre. That set is currently the Sony KV-HR36M31. The Sony will eventually be replaced with a large plasma TV, when I find one I like and I get some income to cover the cost.

Regards,
Ian.

[jpp]

The problem with Beyonwiz isnt the marketing at all. Its the sales channels and the price.

I will speak from experience so as to avoid any inferences.

* If you make a living as an installer there is no obvious avenue for purchasing the units wholesale. * When I was told to purchase BW from supplier X, Y, Z those prices were higher to trade than RRP at Dick Smith.

* eBay sellers were 2/3 the RRP price and nobody at head office could explain to me where or how that was possible (these were new units not repacks). Then for some silly reason the BW sales department tells me that their sales practices were cleared by the ACCC meaning that a whole raft of retailers have already had it with the importer. If you abuse the sales channel by making customers go to the ACCC then you already have a problem with goodwill.

* Similar products sell for much less including the better known Tivo

* Topfield has a model which handles Austar and that has a big subscriber base.

* Most of the advanced features are in the geek-zone. Like internet sharing and LAN download via a whacky utility.

* Some staff in retail outlets talk massive amounts of nonsense and imply features which dont exist ... such as being able to record over HDMI input.

* Topfield is more freely available and an older brand.

* Cost of IceTV is ludicrous.

In my experience ....it either works or it doesnt. If it does work then it has to work without giving you a headache or needing a 14 year old to sort it out.

Drop the price and make purchasing easier. Problem solved.

Yes, I think you've pretty well covered it. What price do you think ICETV subscription would have to drop to? $25 per year? And yes, price of the unit itself. It really has to drop down to the TiVo price. It potentally offers all that the Wiz P1 offers - by early next year we have bee promised and with a FREE EPG subscription to boot.

The Toppy 7100 street price is already down to $650 which is less than a TiVo.

[Gully]

Hi Gully,

Make sure you have a look at the Samsung Series 6.

I found them to be impressive and bought a 40" 650 series last month and have no regrets.

I just received my "free" Blu-ray player and looking forward to setting that up (once I get some discs )

I looked at the Series 6 and thought - why the hell is the cabinet RED!!!??? Yuck!

I am thinking of getting the Series 5 (LA32A550). Is there anything significant that I miss out on from the Series 6 that I don't get on the Series 5? This is not for the home theatre. That set is currently the Sony KV-HR36M31. The Sony will eventually be replaced with a large plasma TV, when I find one I like and I get some income to cover the cost.

Regards,
Ian.

On the 32" model. you don't lose much (very slightly slower refresh rate and one less HDMI input). On the 40", you do as in addition it has a much higher contrast, a slightly better than 32" refresh rate, 100Hz and S-Video input if you need it.

And the red is more a hint of red - it is really very subtle in your home.

[miroj]

Yes, I think you've pretty well covered it. What price do you think ICETV subscription would have to drop to? $25 per year? And yes, price of the unit itself. It really has to drop down to the TiVo price. It potentally offers all that the Wiz P1 offers - by early next year we have bee promised and with a FREE EPG subscription to boot.

The Toppy 7100 street price is already down to $650 which is less than a TiVo.

The TIVO and BW and Topfield are glorified MP4 players. The imaginary price is mostly marketing hubris. This technology has been around for almost a decade and repacking the design does not amount to a new product.

What you want is to make it unattractive for TV makers to install PVR's in TV's and kill the BW completely. At $700 it doesnt take much math to figure out that a HDD costs $65 and it doesnt take much effort to put one in a TV. As soon as BW reaches critical mass the TV makers will turn around and whack it over the head by making the TV's the same price with more features.

IceTV needs to be free. That is what advertising pays for. If I had a database of HD users, their names and mailing addresses imagine what kinds of high-end sales deals I could cook up with 100,000 customers lined up. Whoever runs that business has no idea at all.

[Paul55]

DPG seems to very good at identifying good products. The Toppy was by far the best PVR when it hit the market a few years ago and the Wiz is obviously a great platform as well.
However, DPG hasn't been particularly effective in promoting wider knowledge of PVRs. I'm a bit of an A/V buff (my wife would say obsessed) and I only decided to try a PVR about 18 months ago. I have been a one man advertising campaign since day one and have got 3 family members and as many friends converted. No thanks to the industry.
DPG have also shown a lack of marketing acumen over the years and have even been in 'trouble' for their past marketing practices. They still don't seem to have learned that a mass market will result in the greatest profit - this means reducing prices to entice more customers. Even friends who are interested and reasonably affluent are reluctant to shell out $1000 on an 'experiment' with (in their eyes) untried technology.
Tivo has the potential to expand public awareness and provides an opportunity for other brand suppliers to benefit - but they will need to drop their prices to take market share from Tivo. Experienced users may be aware of the Tivo's deficiencies compared with Wiz/Toppy products, but most new users will be delighted with Tivo and convert their friends.

[jpp]

Yes, I think you've pretty well covered it. What price do you think ICETV subscription would have to drop to? $25 per year? And yes, price of the unit itself. It really has to drop down to the TiVo price. It potentally offers all that the Wiz P1 offers - by early next year we have bee promised and with a FREE EPG subscription to boot.

The Toppy 7100 street price is already down to $650 which is less than a TiVo.

The TIVO and BW and Topfield are glorified MP4 players. The imaginary price is mostly marketing hubris. This technology has been around for almost a decade and repacking the design does not amount to a new product.

What you want is to make it unattractive for TV makers to install PVR's in TV's and kill the BW completely. At $700 it doesnt take much math to figure out that a HDD costs $65 and it doesnt take much effort to put one in a TV. As soon as BW reaches critical mass the TV makers will turn around and whack it over the head by making the TV's the same price with more features.

IceTV needs to be free. That is what advertising pays for. If I had a database of HD users, their names and mailing addresses imagine what kinds of high-end sales deals I could cook up with 100,000 customers lined up. Whoever runs that business has no idea at all.

Not sure that we would get the same PVR funtionalities as a dedicated PVR, but yes, I think the added function of a PAUSE button on the Telly is what most people want that's for sure. Once you have that, you've got a PVR!

And yes again, if ICETV make it a condition to be allowed to sell off subscribers' details, then it should pay for itself. That's how the TiVo model works already and if rumour has any credence, TiVo users will see ads whilst they FF through recordings or Live TV.

[miroj]

And yes again, if ICETV make it a condition to be allowed to sell off subscribers' details, then it should pay for itself. That's how the TiVo model works already and if rumour has any credence, TiVo users will see ads whilst they FF through recordings or Live TV.

Why do they need to sell the list. It's not like anyone else knows what to do with it. They can do what Kogan did and have equipment made to fit the market.

The market has been free and open now for several decades and people still manufacture stuff with a 1980's attitude. "Oh the price is high because we have to recover the cost of research" - which if anyone had done - would never have made the blunders they made. THe idea that technology is made for Australia is laughable. Mostly we are told what we can have.

Products are offered in a mass market way so that we get the USA leftovers at a trade show held in TW or CN. Australian buyers order their stock according to specific parameters and software changes for Australia. They plop 2K on EMC / C-Tick (if it wasnt all done at the same time with the FCC and ECE) and the rest is marketing.

Speaking to several companies with chip level supply, they get very few calls outside of their own country. Even with this modern manufacture capability very few people start from scratch or invent anything outside of Asia. The Chinese get unfairly tagged for copying but usually they made the original and the derivative at the same time in the design process.

So the point is that if products are designed with all the features then they are usually detuned for price. Not manufacture but profit. The difference in price between the greatest product that has ever seen the light of day and the entry level poverty pack product is no more than $100 for every $1000 dollars retail. In other words ... $100 more than than the cheapest version.

[Mixtup]

What you want is to make it unattractive for TV makers to install PVR's in TV's and kill the BW completely. At $700 it doesnt take much math to figure out that a HDD costs $65 and it doesnt take much effort to put one in a TV. As soon as BW reaches critical mass the TV makers will turn around and whack it over the head by making the TV's the same price with more features.

I have to disagree with you there! Unless there is (another) major paradigm shift in the market, then TVs/Displays with "All-in-one" features have never been popular. For example, TVs combined with VCRs or DVDs. Probably because consumers expect the screen to outlast the "other" technology of the day.

TV makers typically also make the "other" devices, like audio systems & recording devices. Every separate device sold = another profit margin made. If you have an all in one box, only 1 profit margin is made. Multi-devices also helps keep the market exciting and fresh, and the consumers baffled/dazzled.

[Paul55]

I suspect Mixtup is right. I certainly wouldn't be interested in having a PVR built into my TV. I expect a TV to last at leastt 15 years - much longer than the lifespan of previous recording technologies.
I seem to recall that a major manufacturer (LG??) has already tried this - didn't seem to last very long.

[miroj]

I suspect Mixtup is right. I certainly wouldn't be interested in having a PVR built into my TV. I expect a TV to last at leastt 15 years - much longer than the lifespan of previous recording technologies.
I seem to recall that a major manufacturer (LG??) has already tried this - didn't seem to last very long.

By the end of the year TV's with have ....
- ethernet
- optical HDMI / DVI / KB and mouse.
- HDD
- MP4 playback
- card slots

The simple reason is that B&O, Philips and Samsung have already demonstrated the technology or entered into agreements. Whether or not we see them in Australia is another thing entirely.

Where Samsung went wrong is that they charge some massive premium for the built in DVR. That put the TV's into some price disadvantage because consumers were not able to calculate TV with HDD was cheaper than TV + PVR.

I see where these comments are coming from but I already spoke to the chip makers in July and they were on the verge of some major product designs. What they basically do in manufacture is strip all of the features out and sell to the low-end consumer. The high end features will first appear on the 100inch TV's (and similar) since those customers dont buy on price.